Announcing the Death of RAID
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@FATeknollogee said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@scottalanmiller said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
- Closed Source RAIN Software: AetherStore
It doesn't seem like you can use AetherStore for VM storage?
You CAN, but you sure wouldn't.
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@travisdh1 said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@FATeknollogee said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@scottalanmiller said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
- Closed Source RAIN Software: AetherStore
It doesn't seem like you can use AetherStore for VM storage?
Hrm, is that a challenge? If it can be mounted on the hypervisor, it can be used as storage. Now I want to go test, and I just don't have the time!
It's a block device, it has to work. Would just be awful.
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@FATeknollogee said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
I just looked at the website use cases & it didn't mention anything about virtualization, so I assumed it couldn't be used.
Just not a good use case for it. It's a block device, which should tell you everything that you need to know. It can be used for any block device task - including building a SAN on top of it.
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@scottalanmiller
A SAN built on 5400-7200 rpm spindles(probably) of varying size/cache, over a network with all your other traffic on it.
Huge performance. -
@momurda said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@scottalanmiller
A SAN built on 5400-7200 rpm spindles(probably) of varying size/cache, over a network with all your other traffic on it.
Huge performance.Not only that, the write speed of Aetherstore isn't fast enough to keep up with running VMs.
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@momurda said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@scottalanmiller
A SAN built on 5400-7200 rpm spindles(probably) of varying size/cache, over a network with all your other traffic on it.
Huge performance.And it is not designed for speed, so even with a dedicated network and SSDs, it isn't all that fast. Not built for that.
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@scottalanmiller nice article
Something to add to the learnings for this year -
@scottalanmiller said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@coliver said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
Is StarWinds vSAN considered RAIN?
We'd have to dig in under the hood. I think that they are mostly focused on network RAID, just really advanced.
StarWind uses local reconstruction codes (for now - stand-alone software or hardware RAID on every node; can be RAID0, 1, 5, 6 or 10) and inter-node n-way replication between the nodes, can be considered as a network RAID1. There's no network parity RAID like HPE (ex-Left Hand) or Ceph does.
P.S. We're working on our own local reconstruction codes now, so local protection (SimpliVity style) won't be required soon. FYI.
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...and then you have companies that cluster servers, with each server having RAID configured. Sacrificing some usable storage there.
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@BBigford said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
...and then you have companies that cluster servers, with each server having RAID configured. Sacrificing some usable storage there.
That's not uncommon and that's kinda of what Kooler is talking about, they use RAID often on individual nodes as a local means of avoiding full rebuilds under most conditions.
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I would treat RAID as a kind of hardware offload since RAIN is known to consume more resources and thus resulting in less performance from the storage array. That is probably one of the major reasons why vendors like StarWind keep using hardware RAID. Especially on smaller deployments (storage capacities).
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@Net-Runner said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
I would treat RAID as a kind of hardware offload since RAIN is known to consume more resources and thus resulting in less performance from the storage array. That is probably one of the major reasons why vendors like StarWind keep using hardware RAID. Especially on smaller deployments (storage capacities).
I wonder if this flies in the face of what @scottalanmiller has been saying that hardware RAID isn't needed for performance reasons?
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@Dashrender said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@Net-Runner said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
I would treat RAID as a kind of hardware offload since RAIN is known to consume more resources and thus resulting in less performance from the storage array. That is probably one of the major reasons why vendors like StarWind keep using hardware RAID. Especially on smaller deployments (storage capacities).
I wonder if this flies in the face of what @scottalanmiller has been saying that hardware RAID isn't needed for performance reasons?
There are many ways to skin a cat and there are some things you can't do w/out hardware components: f.e. SAS in HBA mode can't allow write cache enabled on the disks and can't enable aggressive write-back battery-protected cache because... HBA has none
This means either you acknowledge writes in DRAM (synchronized with some other hosts) or you have to use Enterprise-grade SSDs. Guys like VMware and Microsoft who claim they don't rely on hardware and you can throw away RAID cards are... cheating you! Because now you have to swap RAID cards -> Enterprise grade SSDs they can use as a cache. Pay money to save money. Sweet! -
In other words, I think that @scottalanmiller has been saying that SMBs so rarely tax their systems so much that the performance drain put on the system by software RAID would barely be noticed. So the use of RAID as a hardware offload for RAIN wouldn't make sense - even moreso it doesn't make sense since RAIN itself is completely dependent upon the system CPU and NIC/network resources, not the RAID controller itself.
As mentioned by @scottalanmiller above,
@scottalanmiller said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
... they use RAID often on individual nodes as a local means of avoiding full rebuilds under most conditions.
This makes sense, but will offer no performance gains on the RAIN side of the house.
Unless I've misunderstood something.
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@KOOLER said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@Dashrender said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@Net-Runner said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
I would treat RAID as a kind of hardware offload since RAIN is known to consume more resources and thus resulting in less performance from the storage array. That is probably one of the major reasons why vendors like StarWind keep using hardware RAID. Especially on smaller deployments (storage capacities).
I wonder if this flies in the face of what @scottalanmiller has been saying that hardware RAID isn't needed for performance reasons?
There are many ways to skin a cat and there are some things you can't do w/out hardware components: f.e. SAS in HBA mode can't allow write cache enabled on the disks and can't enable aggressive write-back battery-protected cache because... HBA has none
This means either you acknowledge writes in DRAM (synchronized with some other hosts) or you have to use Enterprise-grade SSDs. Guys like VMware and Microsoft who claim they don't rely on hardware and you can throw away RAID cards are... cheating you! Because now you have to swap RAID cards -> Enterprise grade SSDs they can use as a cache. Pay money to save money. Sweet!Wait a second - are you advocating not using enterprise class drives? I'm pretty sure I read somewhere where @scottalanmiller specifically said, if you plan to have any warranty/support you need to have enterprise drives - sure, the vendor has to support the parts that are under warranty, but can skip the ones that aren't - i.e. you purchase a Dell server and install Samsung SSD, you're on your own for the SSDs.
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@Dashrender said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@KOOLER said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@Dashrender said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@Net-Runner said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
I would treat RAID as a kind of hardware offload since RAIN is known to consume more resources and thus resulting in less performance from the storage array. That is probably one of the major reasons why vendors like StarWind keep using hardware RAID. Especially on smaller deployments (storage capacities).
I wonder if this flies in the face of what @scottalanmiller has been saying that hardware RAID isn't needed for performance reasons?
There are many ways to skin a cat and there are some things you can't do w/out hardware components: f.e. SAS in HBA mode can't allow write cache enabled on the disks and can't enable aggressive write-back battery-protected cache because... HBA has none
This means either you acknowledge writes in DRAM (synchronized with some other hosts) or you have to use Enterprise-grade SSDs. Guys like VMware and Microsoft who claim they don't rely on hardware and you can throw away RAID cards are... cheating you! Because now you have to swap RAID cards -> Enterprise grade SSDs they can use as a cache. Pay money to save money. Sweet!Wait a second - are you advocating not using enterprise class drives? I'm pretty sure I read somewhere where @scottalanmiller specifically said, if you plan to have any warranty/support you need to have enterprise drives - sure, the vendor has to support the parts that are under warranty, but can skip the ones that aren't - i.e. you purchase a Dell server and install Samsung SSD, you're on your own for the SSDs.
You're in the same boat weather you use enterprise class drives or not if you're putting non Dell drives in a Dell server.
WD Red (not Red Pro) drives are consumer class stuff, but they do RAID10 perfectly fine. Yet I'd never run them in a parity RAID array because of the low read error rate.
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@Net-Runner said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
I would treat RAID as a kind of hardware offload since RAIN is known to consume more resources and thus resulting in less performance from the storage array. That is probably one of the major reasons why vendors like StarWind keep using hardware RAID. Especially on smaller deployments (storage capacities).
RAIN often consumes fewer resources not more. But as RAIN is not a single algorithm like RAID levels are, this varies by implementation. And RAIN does not imply software. Simplicity does RAIN with custom hardware for example.
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@travisdh1 said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@Dashrender said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@KOOLER said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@Dashrender said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@Net-Runner said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
I would treat RAID as a kind of hardware offload since RAIN is known to consume more resources and thus resulting in less performance from the storage array. That is probably one of the major reasons why vendors like StarWind keep using hardware RAID. Especially on smaller deployments (storage capacities).
I wonder if this flies in the face of what @scottalanmiller has been saying that hardware RAID isn't needed for performance reasons?
There are many ways to skin a cat and there are some things you can't do w/out hardware components: f.e. SAS in HBA mode can't allow write cache enabled on the disks and can't enable aggressive write-back battery-protected cache because... HBA has none
This means either you acknowledge writes in DRAM (synchronized with some other hosts) or you have to use Enterprise-grade SSDs. Guys like VMware and Microsoft who claim they don't rely on hardware and you can throw away RAID cards are... cheating you! Because now you have to swap RAID cards -> Enterprise grade SSDs they can use as a cache. Pay money to save money. Sweet!Wait a second - are you advocating not using enterprise class drives? I'm pretty sure I read somewhere where @scottalanmiller specifically said, if you plan to have any warranty/support you need to have enterprise drives - sure, the vendor has to support the parts that are under warranty, but can skip the ones that aren't - i.e. you purchase a Dell server and install Samsung SSD, you're on your own for the SSDs.
You're in the same boat weather you use enterprise class drives or not if you're putting non Dell drives in a Dell server.
WD Red (not Red Pro) drives are consumer class stuff, but they do RAID10 perfectly fine. Yet I'd never run them in a parity RAID array because of the low read error rate.
Red Pro are consumer, too. Only difference is spindle speed.
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@scottalanmiller said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@travisdh1 said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@Dashrender said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@KOOLER said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@Dashrender said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@Net-Runner said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
I would treat RAID as a kind of hardware offload since RAIN is known to consume more resources and thus resulting in less performance from the storage array. That is probably one of the major reasons why vendors like StarWind keep using hardware RAID. Especially on smaller deployments (storage capacities).
I wonder if this flies in the face of what @scottalanmiller has been saying that hardware RAID isn't needed for performance reasons?
There are many ways to skin a cat and there are some things you can't do w/out hardware components: f.e. SAS in HBA mode can't allow write cache enabled on the disks and can't enable aggressive write-back battery-protected cache because... HBA has none
This means either you acknowledge writes in DRAM (synchronized with some other hosts) or you have to use Enterprise-grade SSDs. Guys like VMware and Microsoft who claim they don't rely on hardware and you can throw away RAID cards are... cheating you! Because now you have to swap RAID cards -> Enterprise grade SSDs they can use as a cache. Pay money to save money. Sweet!Wait a second - are you advocating not using enterprise class drives? I'm pretty sure I read somewhere where @scottalanmiller specifically said, if you plan to have any warranty/support you need to have enterprise drives - sure, the vendor has to support the parts that are under warranty, but can skip the ones that aren't - i.e. you purchase a Dell server and install Samsung SSD, you're on your own for the SSDs.
You're in the same boat weather you use enterprise class drives or not if you're putting non Dell drives in a Dell server.
WD Red (not Red Pro) drives are consumer class stuff, but they do RAID10 perfectly fine. Yet I'd never run them in a parity RAID array because of the low read error rate.
Red Pro are consumer, too. Only difference is spindle speed.
Did they change that again? They had "discontinued" their low end enterprise line (I forget what they were called before) and just rebranded them Red Pro. So for at least a while, the read error rate on the Reds were lower than the Red Pros.
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@scottalanmiller said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@travisdh1 said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@Dashrender said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@KOOLER said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@Dashrender said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
@Net-Runner said in Announcing the Death of RAID:
I would treat RAID as a kind of hardware offload since RAIN is known to consume more resources and thus resulting in less performance from the storage array. That is probably one of the major reasons why vendors like StarWind keep using hardware RAID. Especially on smaller deployments (storage capacities).
I wonder if this flies in the face of what @scottalanmiller has been saying that hardware RAID isn't needed for performance reasons?
There are many ways to skin a cat and there are some things you can't do w/out hardware components: f.e. SAS in HBA mode can't allow write cache enabled on the disks and can't enable aggressive write-back battery-protected cache because... HBA has none
This means either you acknowledge writes in DRAM (synchronized with some other hosts) or you have to use Enterprise-grade SSDs. Guys like VMware and Microsoft who claim they don't rely on hardware and you can throw away RAID cards are... cheating you! Because now you have to swap RAID cards -> Enterprise grade SSDs they can use as a cache. Pay money to save money. Sweet!Wait a second - are you advocating not using enterprise class drives? I'm pretty sure I read somewhere where @scottalanmiller specifically said, if you plan to have any warranty/support you need to have enterprise drives - sure, the vendor has to support the parts that are under warranty, but can skip the ones that aren't - i.e. you purchase a Dell server and install Samsung SSD, you're on your own for the SSDs.
You're in the same boat weather you use enterprise class drives or not if you're putting non Dell drives in a Dell server.
WD Red (not Red Pro) drives are consumer class stuff, but they do RAID10 perfectly fine. Yet I'd never run them in a parity RAID array because of the low read error rate.
Red Pro are consumer, too. Only difference is spindle speed.
I was thinking the only difference was spindle speed between these - calling it Pro is very misleading.
Why are these consumer class? What makes the Gold drives Enterprise?
