Hardware refresh and Selling the Solution
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So the question is do we need a SAN, I don't think we do. But how do I sell/convince management that other options are available/cheaper and better (I like Scale and think they will good fit, 2-3 node cluster with a good DR plan)
Few Details
One of my projects I'm on at the moment is finding a new supplier for a MPLS (we're using this solution as it's worked well for several years 10+). Part of this deal we will be getting some rack space in the DC and it's been mentioned that we should move our server+NAS into there.Background on our current set-up (please remember this was sold to us and set-up before I arrived here 4+ years ago)
3x Dell Servers
1x Dell SANRunning 12 VM's - DC, SQL Server, Finance & HR, Misc VM's and the biggie! Microsoft Dynamics GP, and Citrix XenApp
58 Sites all access this and run live off the Citrix as we do a lot of Account sales to farms so the store need up to date account information so they don't sell stuff to people on hold.Now the suggestion has already been made that we need a refresh and it's ready been mentioned SAN! from my days on here and SW I know with only 20-30 VM's and 3-4 Hosts we most probably don't need a SAN, but we do need HA, as the SQL/Dynamics/Citrix need to be running 100% during office hours as down time (even 10minutes) could loss us a Ā£50K order.
Hope it all makes sense (I does in my head but never been good at getting down on paper and across to people like my MPLS proposal but that's another story lol
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Tagging @scale @ScaleLegion
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For the record, scale starts at 3 nodes.
No less.
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@hobbit666 said in Hardware refresh and Selling the Solution:
Now the suggestion has already been made that we need a refresh and it's ready been mentioned SAN! from my days on here and SW I know with only 20-30 VM's and 3-4 Hosts we most probably don't need a SAN, but we do need HA, as the SQL/Dynamics/Citrix need to be running 100% during office hours as down time (even 10minutes) could loss us a Ā£50K order.
Since a SAN undermines HA (doesn't make it impossible, just works against it) ask people why they are even putting a SAN on the table. Force them to tell you where the idea came from (hint: answer is always a sales guy) because, and you should point this out before they answer, the SAN introduces these problems:
- Complexity. More moving parts, more dependencies.
- SIngle Point of Failure without mitigation.
- Risk that the SAN will be dual controller and worse than a normal server (unless you spend a fortune)
- Expensive. It's an entire device without a purpose, so every penny is lost money
- Risk. It adds risk, working against your HA.
- Undermines Existing HA. Things like DC HA are totally broken by introducing a SAN.
- Slow. A SAN has extra bottlenecks and overhead, it can't ever be quite as fast as local storage.
So costly, slow and risky. Establish that these are the natural artifacts of a SAN. Then ask them that given these architectural facts, what were the benefits that they were thinking the extra cost and risk were going to be worth.
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@DustinB3403 said in Hardware refresh and Selling the Solution:
For the record, scale starts at 3 nodes.
No less.
The smallest is one pure storage and two mixed compute/storage nodes. Compute doesn't need to be on every node necessarily.
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You can also use EMC ScaleIO for free with your own hardware if you use the community for support https://www.emc.com/products-solutions/trial-software-download/scaleio.htm (or you can buy the software or pre-configured dell servers with it).
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@hobbit666 said in Hardware refresh and Selling the Solution:
from my days on here and SW I know with only 20-30 VM's and 3-4 Hosts we most probably don't need a SAN...
Number of VMs is not a factor in choosing a SAN. But number of host nodes is. And at three or fewer, SAN is literally off the table, there is no possible use case for it. At four it's a million to one that it could make sense, but it could but never where HA is even remotely important. So from the most basic SAN factors, SAN isn't even a remote possibility here. No matter what your goals are otherwise, SAN can't meet your needs. It's super simple in this case because of the HA need, even at four nodes SAN isn't viable. No way to implement it without totally screwing the company financially.
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@Jason said in Hardware refresh and Selling the Solution:
You can also use EMC ScaleIO for free with your own hardware if you use the community for support https://www.emc.com/products-solutions/trial-software-download/scaleio.htm (or you can buy the software or pre-configured dell servers with it).
For commercial use, too? How did I not know that they had opened this up?
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Thanks Sam. Will look over your article on Monday try and get ready when we have the talks soon lol.
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@scottalanmiller said in Hardware refresh and Selling the Solution:
@Jason said in Hardware refresh and Selling the Solution:
You can also use EMC ScaleIO for free with your own hardware if you use the community for support https://www.emc.com/products-solutions/trial-software-download/scaleio.htm (or you can buy the software or pre-configured dell servers with it).
For commercial use, too? How did I not know that they had opened this up?
Yes, the EULA has no restrictions on that. Their marketing terms of course try to convey you should " When you are ready to purchase a ScaleIO software license for full production use and maintenance, contact a Sales Associate" but the EULA has nothing requiring it.
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@Jason said in Hardware refresh and Selling the Solution:
You can also use EMC ScaleIO for free with your own hardware if you use the community for support https://www.emc.com/products-solutions/trial-software-download/scaleio.htm (or you can buy the software or pre-configured dell servers with it).
Just checked, it says you have to purchase a license to use it. This is the trial only and is only for testing.
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@Jason said in Hardware refresh and Selling the Solution:
@scottalanmiller said in Hardware refresh and Selling the Solution:
@Jason said in Hardware refresh and Selling the Solution:
You can also use EMC ScaleIO for free with your own hardware if you use the community for support https://www.emc.com/products-solutions/trial-software-download/scaleio.htm (or you can buy the software or pre-configured dell servers with it).
For commercial use, too? How did I not know that they had opened this up?
Yes, the EULA has no restrictions on that. Their marketing terms of course try to convey you should " When you are ready to purchase a ScaleIO software license for full production use and maintenance, contact a Sales Associate" but the EULA has nothing requiring it.
Oh okay! You've been through the EULA? That's awesome that they quietly left that out.
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@hobbit666 said in Hardware refresh and Selling the Solution:
Thanks Sam. Will look over your article on Monday try and get ready when we have the talks soon lol.
There is a video coming from MangoCon 2016 very soon that covers this as well.
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Maybe print out the SAN article and this one as well for them.
http://www.smbitjournal.com/2013/06/the-inverted-pyramid-of-doom/
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And print this out and have it ready in the "tech pack" for them. This covers why those SAN sales people are out to get them.
https://mangolassi.it/topic/8822/why-dual-controllers-is-not-a-risk-mitigation-strategy-alone
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As Scott said, using a dedicated SAN for this kind of environment is currently the leading cause of cancer in the United States. You could use some type of VSAN to provide shared storage between the servers. VSAN/HP VSA/StarWind will do the trick if you decide to repurpose existing hardware. If you decide to get new hardware, then Scale or StarWind's HCA are your friends.
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Do you have a fancy PDF brochure and a nice PPT presentation stating that your solution is high performance and wonderful?
People would rather pay more for a riskier solution if how it is packaged is appealing to them.
Education is 1 thing and works for some leadership types but others just want a flat quick guarantee of "Will this be the right thing, sell it to me" and you don't have much time to do that.
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@ardeyn Thank you very much for mentioning StarWind.
StarWind HCA should fit your needs perfectly. It is based on Dell hardware and will provide you VMs with pure 100% synchronous HA. This solution is also fully supported by a single vendor and comes to your site preconfigured.
We are also Dell OEM partner, thus less expensive than our competitors. -
@Jason said in Hardware refresh and Selling the Solution:
@scottalanmiller said in Hardware refresh and Selling the Solution:
@Jason said in Hardware refresh and Selling the Solution:
You can also use EMC ScaleIO for free with your own hardware if you use the community for support https://www.emc.com/products-solutions/trial-software-download/scaleio.htm (or you can buy the software or pre-configured dell servers with it).
For commercial use, too? How did I not know that they had opened this up?
Yes, the EULA has no restrictions on that. Their marketing terms of course try to convey you should " When you are ready to purchase a ScaleIO software license for full production use and maintenance, contact a Sales Associate" but the EULA has nothing requiring it.
This isn't true. Don't get yourself intro trouble with misuse! You can't use it for production and you have to let EMC know you evaluate with a prod use in mind. That's EVERYTHING but free... IMHO.
https://www.emc.com/content/terms/eula-scaleio.htm
E. āInternal Business Purposesā means an internal (non-commercial) Use for the purpose(s) of testing and demonstrating the features of the Software, and not for Customer product development, product testing, or other Customer research and development or commercial purposes.
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@KOOLER said in Hardware refresh and Selling the Solution:
@Jason said in Hardware refresh and Selling the Solution:
@scottalanmiller said in Hardware refresh and Selling the Solution:
@Jason said in Hardware refresh and Selling the Solution:
You can also use EMC ScaleIO for free with your own hardware if you use the community for support https://www.emc.com/products-solutions/trial-software-download/scaleio.htm (or you can buy the software or pre-configured dell servers with it).
For commercial use, too? How did I not know that they had opened this up?
Yes, the EULA has no restrictions on that. Their marketing terms of course try to convey you should " When you are ready to purchase a ScaleIO software license for full production use and maintenance, contact a Sales Associate" but the EULA has nothing requiring it.
This isn't true. Don't get yourself intro trouble with misuse! You can't use it for production and you have to let EMC know you evaluate with a prod use in mind. That's EVERYTHING but free... IMHO.
https://www.emc.com/content/terms/eula-scaleio.htm
E. āInternal Business Purposesā means an internal (non-commercial) Use for the purpose(s) of testing and demonstrating the features of the Software, and not for Customer product development, product testing, or other Customer research and development or commercial purposes.
You are reading that incorrectly. That's just definitions, not the terms. Our EMC rep already confirmed it to us.
