How much notice to give an employer?
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@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
I've heard of cases were a person was leaving their job, and forced to take PTO for the 2 weeks, consuming the PTO.
Tricked, not forced. You can't be forced to take PTO, not unless you signed an agreement ahead of time that agreed to that and even then it's questionable.
Why would that be questionable? Or why would you say the person leaving was tricked into using PTO?
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@Brains said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@david.wiese said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@IRJ it depends on how the company is structured. So for me I won't get paid out for the remaining 4 days that I have since I haven't "earned" them yet. You earn them based on the amount of hours you work and when you leave, they can pro-rate that amount. It is perfectly legal.
yea i wish it was prorated. I get it as I earn it, so every 2 weeks, I get 10 hours of ET. I can use it as I earn it, not before. Texas isn't known for protecting workers, so its probably state specific.
That is how my employer does it as well, vacation time/number of pay periods in a year = earned per pay period. This seems to be the most fair system to everyone.
Those companies that give you zero the first year and dump 2 weeks into your vacation pool on your anniversary just suck. The claim being that you've earned the vacation, but really you can't collect on it. It's all or nothing.
Earning vacation by the pay period seems the most fair - granted it's not real time, though I think my employer would actually pay me vacation time earned based on real time if I left in the middle of a pay period, it the closest thing to fair for both parties.
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@Brains said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@IRJ said in How much notice to give an employer?:
2 weeks is what you give every time. No more, no less.
Every new employer will appreciate this and understand the two weeks notice.
As far as the employer you are leaving may beg for 3 weeks or a month. In my opinion you have no right to abide by this. By giving your two weeks you are already showing them a grace period. Employers have no problem laying people off without any grace period so never feel obligated to give any more time. Many times employers will walk IT out the door the same day anyway.
My employer requires 1 month of notice otherwise you are not paid out your Earned Time (Vacation days)
That's called theft. Not paying you money that you have already earned is illegal in the US. It's not a state law, it's federal. It's employment fraud and literally just theft. The US Attorney's General's office would get involved. It could also flag them for tax fraud (since they HAVE to pay the income taxes on that money even if they stole it from you... and you can be sure that they are not.) So it's tax and employment fraud at the federal level, violation of employment rights and then standard theft at the state level.
Very, very illegal.
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@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
I've heard of cases were a person was leaving their job, and forced to take PTO for the 2 weeks, consuming the PTO.
Tricked, not forced. You can't be forced to take PTO, not unless you signed an agreement ahead of time that agreed to that and even then it's questionable.
Why would that be questionable? Or why would you say the person leaving was tricked into using PTO?
How could it be questionable? It's not something that an employer can make you do.
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@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@Brains said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@IRJ said in How much notice to give an employer?:
My employer requires 1 month of notice otherwise you are not paid out your Earned Time (Vacation days)
Yeah this sounds completely illegal in every state of the US.
Earned Time or PTO is a part of your employment contract. Just because you weren't able to use it, doesn't mean they aren't allowed to get away with not paying you for that time.
More importantly... it's part of your PAY. Pay that you have already earned. So taking it away is no different than holding you down and emptying your wallet.
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@IRJ said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@david.wiese said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@IRJ it depends on how the company is structured. So for me I won't get paid out for the remaining 4 days that I have since I haven't "earned" them yet. You earn them based on the amount of hours you work and when you leave, they can pro-rate that amount. It is perfectly legal.
Well if you haven't earned them yet, but if you have 10 days of vacation accrued. They need to pay it out.
Exactly
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@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
I've heard of cases were a person was leaving their job, and forced to take PTO for the 2 weeks, consuming the PTO.
Tricked, not forced. You can't be forced to take PTO, not unless you signed an agreement ahead of time that agreed to that and even then it's questionable.
Maybe neither - send you home without pay. I hear about shops that close for 2 weeks over holidays. Those shops tell the employees, you have two options, use vacation time to get paid, or go without pay.
Are you saying this is illegal?
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@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
I've heard of cases were a person was leaving their job, and forced to take PTO for the 2 weeks, consuming the PTO.
Tricked, not forced. You can't be forced to take PTO, not unless you signed an agreement ahead of time that agreed to that and even then it's questionable.
Maybe neither - send you home without pay. I hear about shops that close for 2 weeks over holidays. Those shops tell the employees, you have two options, use vacation time to get paid, or go without pay.
Are you saying this is illegal?
It's legal. But they are laid off. Company takes the hit for laying people off for two weeks. That's a furlough (temporary lay off with a guaranteed return date.) So yes, if you are asking if firing the person is legal, sure. But they then STILL have to pay the PTO AND they have to pay unemployment!
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@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
I've heard of cases were a person was leaving their job, and forced to take PTO for the 2 weeks, consuming the PTO.
Tricked, not forced. You can't be forced to take PTO, not unless you signed an agreement ahead of time that agreed to that and even then it's questionable.
Maybe neither - send you home without pay. I hear about shops that close for 2 weeks over holidays. Those shops tell the employees, you have two options, use vacation time to get paid, or go without pay.
Are you saying this is illegal?
It's legal. But they are laid off. Company takes the hit for laying people off for two weeks. That's a furlough (temporary lay off with a guaranteed return date.) So yes, if you are asking if firing the person is legal, sure. But they then STILL have to pay the PTO AND they have to pay unemployment!
Could they lay them off? or does that suffer the same penalties as firing them?
I do realize they have to pay the PTO regardless, it's earned, it's legally their money. I'm just trying to see if there is a legal way of doing what Dustin said?
In "at will" states, the firing without cause is pretty much meaningless, so if you don't want the employee to finish out their 'notice' just fire them with few/no issues - yeah of course unemployment could still be an issue.
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@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
I've heard of cases were a person was leaving their job, and forced to take PTO for the 2 weeks, consuming the PTO.
Tricked, not forced. You can't be forced to take PTO, not unless you signed an agreement ahead of time that agreed to that and even then it's questionable.
Maybe neither - send you home without pay. I hear about shops that close for 2 weeks over holidays. Those shops tell the employees, you have two options, use vacation time to get paid, or go without pay.
Are you saying this is illegal?
I've experienced this at one of my first jobs. It was the oddest thing (being a kid and not knowing what the heck was occurring) Ok the business is closing for these 2 weeks, take PTO (which still seems odd) or don't get paid.
"Hey we're closing the business for two weeks, your technically fired for this time, with a guaranteed restart date, but you can use PTO and still get a check..."
Um no pay me for unemployment, and continue my PTO when the business starts back up.
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@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
I've heard of cases were a person was leaving their job, and forced to take PTO for the 2 weeks, consuming the PTO.
Tricked, not forced. You can't be forced to take PTO, not unless you signed an agreement ahead of time that agreed to that and even then it's questionable.
Maybe neither - send you home without pay. I hear about shops that close for 2 weeks over holidays. Those shops tell the employees, you have two options, use vacation time to get paid, or go without pay.
Are you saying this is illegal?
It's legal. But they are laid off. Company takes the hit for laying people off for two weeks. That's a furlough (temporary lay off with a guaranteed return date.) So yes, if you are asking if firing the person is legal, sure. But they then STILL have to pay the PTO AND they have to pay unemployment!
Could they lay them off? or does that suffer the same penalties as firing them?
Could you lay off someone that just put in notice? Sure, if you can PROVE that them giving notice had literally zero impact on the decision and that they would have been laid off otherwise and that the layoff was legit otherwise. So if, for example, you had all the paperwork in place to lay someone off, and you walked into their office ready to tell them, and they turned around and said "Hey, sorry but I'm leaving, here is my two week notice", THEN you could say, oh, actually you are laid off starting now. But unless you can prove that you were about to say those words (and in any legitimate lay off, you could) then you fired them without cause and suffer all penalties of firing them PLUS the penalties for trying to scam the system.
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@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
I've heard of cases were a person was leaving their job, and forced to take PTO for the 2 weeks, consuming the PTO.
Tricked, not forced. You can't be forced to take PTO, not unless you signed an agreement ahead of time that agreed to that and even then it's questionable.
Maybe neither - send you home without pay. I hear about shops that close for 2 weeks over holidays. Those shops tell the employees, you have two options, use vacation time to get paid, or go without pay.
Are you saying this is illegal?
It's legal. But they are laid off. Company takes the hit for laying people off for two weeks. That's a furlough (temporary lay off with a guaranteed return date.) So yes, if you are asking if firing the person is legal, sure. But they then STILL have to pay the PTO AND they have to pay unemployment!
Could they lay them off? or does that suffer the same penalties as firing them?
Could you lay off someone that just put in notice? Sure, if you can PROVE that them giving notice had literally zero impact on the decision and that they would have been laid off otherwise and that the layoff was legit otherwise. So if, for example, you had all the paperwork in place to lay someone off, and you walked into their office ready to tell them, and they turned around and said "Hey, sorry but I'm leaving, here is my two week notice", THEN you could say, oh, actually you are laid off starting now. But unless you can prove that you were about to say those words (and in any legitimate lay off, you could) then you fired them without cause and suffer all penalties of firing them PLUS the penalties for trying to scam the system.
What about 'at will' states?
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@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
In "at will" states, the firing without cause is pretty much meaningless,
I don't know who is telling you this stuff but it's totally false. First, nearly all states are effectively at will. Those that are not, are basically at will. The US is nearly an at will country. Firing is ALWAYS meaningful, VERY meaningful. When you fire someone, YOU are the deciding factor, not them. You can never claim that they quit, you can never claim that you fired them for cause, you can never not pay unemployment for them. It's a very, very big deal.
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@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
I've heard of cases were a person was leaving their job, and forced to take PTO for the 2 weeks, consuming the PTO.
Tricked, not forced. You can't be forced to take PTO, not unless you signed an agreement ahead of time that agreed to that and even then it's questionable.
Maybe neither - send you home without pay. I hear about shops that close for 2 weeks over holidays. Those shops tell the employees, you have two options, use vacation time to get paid, or go without pay.
Are you saying this is illegal?
It's legal. But they are laid off. Company takes the hit for laying people off for two weeks. That's a furlough (temporary lay off with a guaranteed return date.) So yes, if you are asking if firing the person is legal, sure. But they then STILL have to pay the PTO AND they have to pay unemployment!
Could they lay them off? or does that suffer the same penalties as firing them?
Could you lay off someone that just put in notice? Sure, if you can PROVE that them giving notice had literally zero impact on the decision and that they would have been laid off otherwise and that the layoff was legit otherwise. So if, for example, you had all the paperwork in place to lay someone off, and you walked into their office ready to tell them, and they turned around and said "Hey, sorry but I'm leaving, here is my two week notice", THEN you could say, oh, actually you are laid off starting now. But unless you can prove that you were about to say those words (and in any legitimate lay off, you could) then you fired them without cause and suffer all penalties of firing them PLUS the penalties for trying to scam the system.
What about 'at will' states?
That's exactly what I'm describing. Never think of "at will" states as a unique case. This always applies. At will does not mean that you can lie or commit fraud.
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so fire them, pay unemployment and move on. What's the big deal? Assuming you want them gone the moment they hand in their notice.
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@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
I do realize they have to pay the PTO regardless, it's earned, it's legally their money. I'm just trying to see if there is a legal way of doing what Dustin said?
What Dustin is describing is... NOT paying them during their two weeks of work. That they are required to be at home for it doesn't change that they didn't take vacation time. So not paying them for the time is literally the same as firing them but trying to hide it from the IRS. It's literally just fraud.
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@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
so fire them, pay unemployment and move on. What's the big deal? Assuming you want them gone the moment they hand in their notice.
THAT is the big deal. Unemployment is like forever. You pay for many years, possibly decades. And the "we fired someone without cause" stays with you forever, it's blots the company's credibility and marks them as unprofessional AND justifies other employees walking out without notice and having proof as to why they could not give any. This is a really big deal to a company.
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@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
so fire them, pay unemployment and move on. What's the big deal? Assuming you want them gone the moment they hand in their notice.
If that's what you want, why not just pay them the two weeks and ask them to stay home? You pay less, let them quit, take on no risk and are a good employer. Every decent company works this way, and every enterprise that I've ever heard of. HR will never let you fire people after they put in notice, that's a disaster.
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@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
I've heard of cases were a person was leaving their job, and forced to take PTO for the 2 weeks, consuming the PTO.
Tricked, not forced. You can't be forced to take PTO, not unless you signed an agreement ahead of time that agreed to that and even then it's questionable.
Maybe neither - send you home without pay. I hear about shops that close for 2 weeks over holidays. Those shops tell the employees, you have two options, use vacation time to get paid, or go without pay.
Are you saying this is illegal?
I've experienced this at one of my first jobs. It was the oddest thing (being a kid and not knowing what the heck was occurring) Ok the business is closing for these 2 weeks, take PTO (which still seems odd) or don't get paid.
"Hey we're closing the business for two weeks, your technically fired for this time, with a guaranteed restart date, but you can use PTO and still get a check..."
Um no pay me for unemployment, and continue my PTO when the business starts back up.
It's not fired, it's laid off. They are legally two different things. They might feel the same to you but they are totally different on a reference check, on a resume, in an interview and to the government. Being fired means that you were at fault, being laid off means the company was at fault.
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@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
I've heard of cases were a person was leaving their job, and forced to take PTO for the 2 weeks, consuming the PTO.
Tricked, not forced. You can't be forced to take PTO, not unless you signed an agreement ahead of time that agreed to that and even then it's questionable.
Maybe neither - send you home without pay. I hear about shops that close for 2 weeks over holidays. Those shops tell the employees, you have two options, use vacation time to get paid, or go without pay.
Are you saying this is illegal?
I've experienced this at one of my first jobs. It was the oddest thing (being a kid and not knowing what the heck was occurring) Ok the business is closing for these 2 weeks, take PTO (which still seems odd) or don't get paid.
"Hey we're closing the business for two weeks, your technically fired for this time, with a guaranteed restart date, but you can use PTO and still get a check..."
Um no pay me for unemployment, and continue my PTO when the business starts back up.
It's not fired, it's laid off. They are legally two different things. They might feel the same to you but they are totally different on a reference check, on a resume, in an interview and to the government. Being fired means that you were at fault, being laid off means the company was at fault.
Verbiage issues aside, do you agree that the employer can't tell you to use PTO to receive a check in the scenario? That they should be paying you through Unemployment insurance.
