Windows 10 Anniversary Edition May Delete Partitions!
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@Breffni-Potter said in Windows 10 Anniversary Edition May Delete Partitions!:
@scottalanmiller said
But the issue is Windows blowing away partitions that it has no authority to destroy. That they are used by Linux, might be used by Linux or are exclusively Linux is speculation and irrelevant. The issue is 100% Windows.
But you gave the OS authority to modify partitions, you give every OS permission to make changes to the underlying hardware. That is entirely a choice.
That's like saying that every bug or virus is "giving authority." If your OS just deletes random files, do you defend it as "giving authority?" Do you call a RAID array that randomly drops data "given authority?"
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@Breffni-Potter said in Windows 10 Anniversary Edition May Delete Partitions!:
In fact...oh hang on.
"Windows 10 Anniversary Update Borks Dual-Boot Partitions "
Even the original article clearly says this affects dual boot partitions only in the title.
That's couching. There is no way to identify a dual boot partition. There isn't such a thing as a "dual boot" partition. That may be the scenario that people are noticing, but it's bad reporting to have added inappropriate qualifiers that cannot be exclusively true to the title. And even if that were exclusively true, it in no way makes the title here wrong. However, the title here is more accurate by not implying false limitations that cannot exist.
Nothing about this can be related to Linux. If a Windows Ext3 driver was used, a Windows partition would be just as likely to be overwritten. The very idea that Linux is mentioned here is wrong and shows how much bias there is in the Windows reporting space. This is a Windows issue with overwriting partitions that it is not supposed to be altering. What's in those partitions is not relevant.
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@Breffni-Potter said in Windows 10 Anniversary Edition May Delete Partitions!:
Does it delete Windows 10 partitions?
There is no such thing as a Windows 10 partitions. You are trying to deflect blame from the culpable party by introducing false limitations. Partitions are partitions, period. The entire partition table is "Windows 10 partitions" if you want to label them. So yes, it does delete Windows 10 partitions if you want to use that terminology.
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@scottalanmiller said
That's like saying that every bug or virus is "giving authority." If your OS just deletes random files, do you defend it as "giving authority?" Do you call a RAID array that randomly drops data "given authority?"
The virus example, if the data is read only, what will happen to it? Probably nothing. IF you have modify writes, then a virus can and will do what it can to your data. By choosing to run that taxreturn.pdf.exe you as a user gave that virus the authority to make changes to your system.
Well yes, the RAID array would have authority over the data because it is constantly making changes to the underlying data. Whether it stripes the data or mirrors it, it has the authority to do that and when these cards go faulty you end up losing your data or it becomes corrupted.
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I just tried actually booting to my other win10 partition, the one that i didnt update yet.... First time it didnt work. Went back to bios screen, tried again, and after not letting me choose which win10 to use(again) it loaded up the un updated volume and i was able to login to it.
Now ive just rebooted back into win10 on my ssd, all is good. -
@Breffni-Potter said in Windows 10 Anniversary Edition May Delete Partitions!:
If you had no other operating system other than Windows on the same storage device, would this be a problem?
Obviously it could still be a problem as the issue is with Windows 10. Only one OS can run at a time. Dual boot machines is not a stateful concept. While the machine is running it is either all Windows or all Linux. The issue here is that while the system is all Windows 10, Windows 10 inappropriately overwrites some partitions. While the news outlet wanted to make this sound like dual booting was involved, and likely was in the examples, we know that it's physically impossible for this to be a limitation. The partition table belongs to Windows 10 while the system is running, the data on the partitions is the responsibility of Windows 10 and Windows 10 deleted the data. It's a Windows 10 problem, no Linux running (and no way for Windows 10 to know if it is even installed.)
Linux is totally a red herring here. Thus far, we could theorize that it's "non-NTFS filesystems", but it would only be a theory. But we know that it can't be based on the dual boot nature, that's impossible.
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@Breffni-Potter said in Windows 10 Anniversary Edition May Delete Partitions!:
The virus example, if the data is read only, what will happen to it?
One could argue that the data was read only in this case and was affected anyway.
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@scottalanmiller said
That's couching. There is no way to identify a dual boot partition. There isn't such a thing as a "dual boot" partition.
Nothing about this can be related to Linux. If a Windows Ext3 driver was used, a Windows partition would be just as likely to be overwritten.As I said, any type of multi OS install on the same storage device has gone silly in the past. Dual booting is a very common term, we all here know what it means, typically many many users would have 2 operating systems and refer to it as dual booting, This is common.
And as I said before, this could have easily happened if you mixed 7 and 10 on the same HDD. If you mix OSes on the same storage medium, be prepared for snags down the line.
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@Breffni-Potter said in Windows 10 Anniversary Edition May Delete Partitions!:
Well yes, the RAID array would have authority over the data because it is constantly making changes to the underlying data. Whether it stripes the data or mirrors it, it has the authority to do that and when these cards go faulty you end up losing your data or it becomes corrupted.
We don't call it "giving authority" when a system acts as it promises not to do. Does the device have the ability to make a change? Obviously. Does it legally have the right to do so, no.
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@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 Anniversary Edition May Delete Partitions!:
@Breffni-Potter said in Windows 10 Anniversary Edition May Delete Partitions!:
The virus example, if the data is read only, what will happen to it?
One could argue that the data was read only in this case and was affected anyway.
You could argue that point but in true computing sense, if it was read only this would never have happened. Same way if I boot up an OS off a pen drive, I can instruct the hardware and tell it what to do, i.e format everything on the hard drive.
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@Breffni-Potter said in Windows 10 Anniversary Edition May Delete Partitions!:
@scottalanmiller said
That's couching. There is no way to identify a dual boot partition. There isn't such a thing as a "dual boot" partition.
Nothing about this can be related to Linux. If a Windows Ext3 driver was used, a Windows partition would be just as likely to be overwritten.As I said, any type of multi OS install on the same storage device has gone silly in the past. Dual booting is a very common term, we all here know what it means, typically many many users would have 2 operating systems and refer to it as dual booting, This is common.
And as I said before, this could have easily happened if you mixed 7 and 10 on the same HDD. If you mix OSes on the same storage medium, be prepared for snags down the line.
Yes, it is a common term. But one that is being used here for the purpose of being misleading.
No one said that this was on the same hard drive, did they? My Linux and Windows are on different hard drives. But the fear here is that Windows 10 would leverage its access to the hardware to damage other devices anyway.
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@scottalanmiller said
No one said that this was on the same hard drive, did they? My Linux and Windows are on different hard drives. But the fear here is that Windows 10 would leverage its access to the hardware to damage other devices anyway.
The claim is it was the same disk. As per the article linked in the OP.
"Windows 10 Anniversary Update may affect and even delete other partitions on the same disk, OMGUbuntu is reporting, citing several complaints by users"
Where is the assumption that it would break other hard drives too?
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@Breffni-Potter said in Windows 10 Anniversary Edition May Delete Partitions!:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 Anniversary Edition May Delete Partitions!:
@Breffni-Potter said in Windows 10 Anniversary Edition May Delete Partitions!:
The virus example, if the data is read only, what will happen to it?
One could argue that the data was read only in this case and was affected anyway.
You could argue that point but in true computing sense, if it was read only this would never have happened. Same way if I boot up an OS off a pen drive, I can instruct the hardware and tell it what to do, i.e format everything on the hard drive.
That's not true in the context of the virus. You said that a virus could not make changes if it was read only. But Windows read-only is different. Read-only is after mounting. This happened before mounting. So not only is it read only, it's not even read only. It's not even read. And even without read permissions, it changed the partition table.
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@Breffni-Potter said in Windows 10 Anniversary Edition May Delete Partitions!:
@scottalanmiller said
No one said that this was on the same hard drive, did they? My Linux and Windows are on different hard drives. But the fear here is that Windows 10 would leverage its access to the hardware to damage other devices anyway.
The claim is it was the same disk. As per the article linked in the OP.
"Windows 10 Anniversary Update may affect and even delete other partitions on the same disk, OMGUbuntu is reporting, citing several complaints by users"
Where is the assumption that it would break other hard drives too?
I missed that. I would assume, but I guess it's just me, that since Windows can't in all cases determine what is or is not the same drive that messing with available block devices is just what that is.
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My point, though, is that if it was something other than Linux that had those partitions, even if it was Windows, and even if there was no dual booting, it would be identical on the device and identical to Windows and the risk would be the same. While the system is running that data belongs to Windows and Windows alone and Windows blew away Windows data.
However you want to term it, adding in the dual booting part is a red herring to try to deflect blame. It's useful, slightly, to know the common use case. But it's not useful to IT pros who need to understand the real fault and problem, which has to be Windows not honouring its designated partition table and making unauthorized alterations.
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@scottalanmiller said
I missed that. I would assume, but I guess it's just me, that since Windows can't in all cases determine what is or is not the same drive that messing with available block devices is just what that is.
Apart from ransomware/virus/bad software or a mistake, I've not seen any OS break an additional storage device yet. I have seen constantly over the years, when you install multiple OSes to the same disk, you can and do run into problems. I've seen software updates from Apple trash Windows and Linux installs on OSx frequently, Windows has done the same in the past.
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@Breffni-Potter said in Windows 10 Anniversary Edition May Delete Partitions!:
Apart from ransomware/virus/bad software or a mistake, I've not seen any OS break an additional storage device yet. I have seen constantly over the years, when you install multiple OSes to the same disk, you can and do run into problems. I've seen software updates from Apple trash Windows and Linux installs on OSx frequently, Windows has done the same in the past.
So two critical points here, though:
- That Windows has done this in the past in no way makes it any less of a problem today.
- That the most common use case that Windows fails during is caused by dual booting intention doesn't change the fact that the issue is not exclusive to dual booting scenarios.
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Apple trash Windows and Linux installs on OSx frequently,
I have high-lighted the bit you quoted in bold. How is this a problem exclusive to Windows if OSX can and has broken installs as well?
Also I'm sure Linux installs can break the Windows partition as well, through carelessness or a bad bit of software installed, you can break that storage. We don't know how or why this happened exactly with Windows 10 but I'm willing to bet some kind of cleanup script was run at the end of the install which for reasons unknown, decided to terminate this partition. We don't know why but it's rubbish to say Windows is the only OS in history to have done this in the specific scenario of having more than 1 OS installed on the same storage.
@scottalanmiller said
- That the most common use case that Windows fails during is caused by dual booting intention doesn't change the fact that the issue is not exclusive to dual booting scenarios.
Where are they saying that on the article though?
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@Breffni-Potter said in Windows 10 Anniversary Edition May Delete Partitions!:
Apple trash Windows and Linux installs on OSx frequently,
I have high-lighted the bit you quoted in bold. How is this a problem exclusive to Windows if OSX can and has broken installs as well?
Also I'm sure Linux installs can break the Windows partition as well, through carelessness or a bad bit of software installed, you can break that storage. We don't know how or why this happened exactly with Windows 10 but I'm willing to bet some kind of cleanup script was run at the end of the install which for reasons unknown, decided to terminate this partition. We don't know why but it's rubbish to say Windows is the only OS in history to have done this in the specific scenario of having more than 1 OS installed on the same storage.
@scottalanmiller said
- That the most common use case that Windows fails during is caused by dual booting intention doesn't change the fact that the issue is not exclusive to dual booting scenarios.
Where are they saying that on the article though?
Where did I say that Windows was the only OS in history to misbehave and kill storage? And I don't see how OSX being less than ready for prime time (something very evident to me from having tried to use it) excuses Windows from being stable?
I understand, Linux is great and everything else is crap. Linux definitely tends to take data integrity much more seriously than Windows. But why does this need to be about who is better or worse? This is about Windows having a data integrity issue right now that people need to look out for and be aware of and they should not be mislead to think that it is anything except a Windows data integrity issue - it is not reliably handling its own partition table.
