Apple is fighting the FBI
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@scottalanmiller said:
And ultimately, we fear that this demand would undermine the very freedoms and liberty our government is meant to protect.
Read: The people that we need to be protect from are the FBI, they are the ones putting our freedom and liberty at risk. The fifth column, so to speak.
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The All Writs Act only authorizes a federal court. The FBI attempting to use it appears to be an attempt to openly inform the US public that the FBI is now seeing itself as both the executor AND the creator of laws. This looks like a fundamental subjugation of the US legal system. It would mean that the police have more authority than the law.
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@scottalanmiller said:
TL/DR The FBI is requesting a dangerous backdoor in the iPhone.
Other governments are doing the same / similar things, aren't they? I'd be surprised if the answer is no.
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@dafyre said:
Other governments are doing the same / similar things, aren't they? I'd be surprised if the answer is no.
This isn't a government doing it. The FBI is an agency. The government can do this through the courts, the FBI is going around the courts. This is very different from a government requesting it. This is open sedition.
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Not that it is acceptable for any free society to have a government that would request this and, of course, I don't believe any free society has one that would. If your government acts like this, it no longer sees itself in a role of protecting its citizens but in a position of owning them.
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@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
TL/DR The FBI is requesting a dangerous backdoor in the iPhone.
Other governments are doing the same / similar things, aren't they? I'd be surprised if the answer is no.
Other governments don't have our constitution.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Not that it is acceptable for any free society to have a government that would request this and, of course, I don't believe any free society has one that would. If your government acts like this, it no longer sees itself in a role of protecting its citizens but in a position of owning them.
What is your stance of the UK? They are moving toward this too, if they don't already have it.
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Good for Apple! Way to stand up for what is right. This is a big win for your users. Because right now, I am wondering if the FBI asked Google to do the same thing.
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@Dashrender said:
Other governments don't have our constitution.
I think you are implying something but I don't know what it is.
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@Dashrender said:
What is your stance of the UK? They are moving toward this too, if they don't already have it.
UK is in terrible shape. They will follow the US into total disaster. The spying five are all less than free and have citizenry that has never taken freedom very seriously. Societies use the word "free" a lot when they want to hide the fact that they aren't very free.
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@IRJ said:
I am wondering if the FBI asked Google to do the same thing.
I don't think that they can, because the phone makers would just remove the back door. Only the OEM phone maker can be coerced to do this. Making Apple unique in the US.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
Other governments don't have our constitution.
I think you are implying something but I don't know what it is.
@dafyre asked if other governments are doing the same / similar things - and of course they are, but their citizens aren't protected from these things by something like our constitution.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@IRJ said:
I am wondering if the FBI asked Google to do the same thing.
I don't think that they can, because the phone makers would just remove the back door. Only the OEM phone maker can be coerced to do this. Making Apple unique in the US.
Samsung and HTC would cover a big percentage of Android phones. The FBI may be talking to them.
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@IRJ said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@IRJ said:
I am wondering if the FBI asked Google to do the same thing.
I don't think that they can, because the phone makers would just remove the back door. Only the OEM phone maker can be coerced to do this. Making Apple unique in the US.
Samsung and HTC would cover a big percentage of Android phones. The FBI may be talking to them.
But as non US companies, I'm not sure what kind of control the FBI can exert on them?
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@Dashrender said:
@dafyre asked if other governments are doing the same / similar things - and of course they are, but their citizens aren't protected from these things by something like our constitution.
In what way is the US protected by the constitution in this case and why do you feel that it is stronger in protecting its citizens than other country's constitutions? The US constitutions famously does not protect a lot of things and is pretty weak compared to most free countries. And unlike the EU, lacks a secondary shield from a higher level.
What aspect of the constitution applies here? The issue is the dissolvement of government oversight. Constitution didn't protect us from the Patriot Act. Nor the Alien and Sedition Acts. It has no power here if the FBI dissolves the court system.
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@Dashrender said:
But as non US companies, I'm not sure what kind of control the FBI can exert on them?
A lot. They can threaten, extort, block trade, scare their people, etc.
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@IRJ said:
Samsung and HTC would cover a big percentage of Android phones. The FBI may be talking to them.
I think there is no question there.
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I agree it's great that Apple is openly reporting what is being asked of them by the FBI, and that it's horrible what the FBI is even asking.
I don't understand how this in anyway would actually assist them in anyway that is measurable versus the number of people who would be monitored simply because they have a Smartphone.
The FBI is stepping far outside of their reach, which also means that they should never use an Apple iPhone (or android or Windows Mobile) device ever if they want their communications to be secure.
They're effectively asking for a hole in the basic security of the devices that everyone is using today. Apply rightfully so is telling the FBI to piss off, because the request is insane.
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@DustinB3403 said:
I don't understand how this in anyway would actually assist them in anyway that is measurable versus the number of people who would be monitored simply because they have a Smartphone.
We don't know what their goals are. It has some major effects, just not ones in the interest of Americans. But there are many pressures that could get an agency like the FBI to have interests that do not align with the people (or the law, or the government.)
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@DustinB3403 said:
The FBI is stepping far outside of their reach, which also means that they should never use an Apple iPhone (or android or Windows Mobile) device ever if they want their communications to be secure.
This isn't quite correct. The FBI could still continue to use those devices, they would just need to install additional software on top of iOS that gave them the security they need. Being who they are, they would be more willing to deal with the extra complexities of this setup than normal citizens would.
