Joes Crab Shack Drops Tipping in America
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But what would the impact of something like this be if it were instituted at a good restaurant? That's the only way I'd be concerned.
Either way, this reeks of a corporate move to seize some of the $$$ earned by servers, while paying them a wage that is less than what they would make getting regular tips. Even 20 years ago, I knew servers who worked in average restaurants that would be pissed if they didn't walk with the equivalent of $25/hr or more every night. $14/hr with no possibility of more (that "performance incentive is bullshit, no server at Joe's will see more than a dollar per hour increase) is insulting. I wouldn't take a server job for that small, set amount per hour. Any competent server can make far more than 14 bucks an hour, especially if they work in fine dining.
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@Dashrender said:
That may be, but it surely appears that Joe doesn't think tipping is where it's at and is looking to do away with it.
Tipping is NOT where it is at, it is a horribly ridiculous practice that makes no sense at all. Tipping implies that the customers will make arbitrary, case by case service decisions based on the performance of one person in a supply chain. It is absolutely insane. The people who truly matter, the ones making the food, we don't tip. Why do we only tip the ones that we see face to face? Idiotic. Tipping just makes everything worse. It undermines good service and makes all parties unhappy.
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@Dashrender said:
or are you guessing that we'll pay more for the meal, the employee will get paid more, and we'll tip 10% or whatever the 'norm' is in the rest of the world?
Yes, I assume that the price will go up and the cost will go down. Why would we tip 10% if there is no tipping?
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@RojoLoco said:
But what would the impact of something like this be if it were instituted at a good restaurant? That's the only way I'd be concerned.
If the people only work for tips what are the chances it would be good.
Frankly, let's have robots deliver food. What point is there to wait staff?
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@RojoLoco said:
Either way, this reeks of a corporate move to seize some of the $$$ earned by servers, while paying them a wage that is less than what they would make getting regular tips.
That would be hard to do. How could the restaurant make more money when they have to suddenly pay out so much more? Legally they have to pay at least minimum wage and for the market to work they will have to pay far, far above that.
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@RojoLoco said:
Even 20 years ago, I knew servers who worked in average restaurants that would be pissed if they didn't walk with the equivalent of $25/hr or more every night.
Even decently well off waiters rarely make that these days. And wouldn't it be nice if people making $50K a year paid taxes like the rest of us?
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@scottalanmiller said:
@RojoLoco said:
Either way, this reeks of a corporate move to seize some of the $$$ earned by servers, while paying them a wage that is less than what they would make getting regular tips.
That would be hard to do. How could the restaurant make more money when they have to suddenly pay out so much more? Legally they have to pay at least minimum wage and for the market to work they will have to pay far, far above that.
I can't provide the numbers of how, but why would they do this other than to make more money? Even if only from the "good PR move" they think this is, they are obviously expecting more revenue / more profit for the company / shareholders / whatever. Corporations only make changes when it makes them more money.
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@RojoLoco said:
$14/hr with no possibility of more (that "performance incentive is bullshit, no server at Joe's will see more than a dollar per hour increase) is insulting. I wouldn't take a server job for that small, set amount per hour. Any competent server can make far more than 14 bucks an hour, especially if they work in fine dining.
Then don't take the job. If they aren't paying a competitive wage they won't get employees. My guess is that they get better ones.
And this isn't fine dining. If it was, they'd pay more.
I've eaten at some of the best restaurants in Dallas and you know what.... 17 of the top ones (it's a high end country club chain that focuses on their dining) are tip free. Always have been. Zero tipping, amazing service.
In the real world I've seen it done, even in the US, and the tipping doesn't tie into quality of service. The highest tips I know of are in restaurants where the service is horrible and the staff are half naked. And the best I see regularly have lower tips or none.
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@RojoLoco said:
I can't provide the numbers of how, but why would they do this other than to make more money?
They don't have to make money from the staff. They can make it by having more and happier customers, lowering overhead, getting better staff, etc.
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@RojoLoco said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@RojoLoco said:
Either way, this reeks of a corporate move to seize some of the $$$ earned by servers, while paying them a wage that is less than what they would make getting regular tips.
That would be hard to do. How could the restaurant make more money when they have to suddenly pay out so much more? Legally they have to pay at least minimum wage and for the market to work they will have to pay far, far above that.
I can't provide the numbers of how, but why would they do this other than to make more money? Even if only from the "good PR move" they think this is, they are obviously expecting more revenue / more profit for the company / shareholders / whatever. Corporations only make changes when it makes them more money.
None of that suggests that they are seizing wait staff pay. The opposite, they are moving it until federal employee wage protection.
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I think that a lot of people on tips make up the amount that they get paid. I've known people at restaurants to tell me that they wouldn't work for under $500 a night. But I know senior people at the same restaurant that quit for minimum wage jobs elsewhere because it's the "same pay but less stressful." I've been a waiter, managed restaurants and know tons of people working in those fields and even today $25/hr is an excellent wait rate. There are huge numbers of people waiting tables hoping that they can beat minimum wage out there. Tons.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@RojoLoco said:
Even 20 years ago, I knew servers who worked in average restaurants that would be pissed if they didn't walk with the equivalent of $25/hr or more every night.
Even decently well off waiters rarely make that these days. And wouldn't it be nice if people making $50K a year paid taxes like the rest of us?
@RojoLoco is absolutely right. When I eat at a steakhouse, the average bill for two people is $50. If I'm paying 25% tip that's $12.50 Assuming they have 4 tables an hour (If the steak place is any good, it would be more like 8 tables an hour) that person is making $50/hr for at least 4 hours, and you can assume they will average at minimum 1 table an hour at $12.50 in tips for the other 4 hours of their shift. Before the restaurant pays them a dime, they've already made $250 for the night for an average of $31.25/hr.
Now I'll agree that 25% average tip is probably ridiculously high compared to what they actually get, so let's say they get 18%. That puts them at $180/night, $22.50/hr. This seems completely reasonable. But you might even drop it some more and just say that they average $20/hr.
I doubt the restaurant is going to raise the prices of plates 18%+ so they can pass along that level of wage to the employees.
If we're talking about fine dinning - Those guys are definitely much closer to the 25% numbers, and with average bills in there between $80-200, now those guys are making between $40-120K/yr Again, don't see the restaurant passing that kind of bread along to the wait staff.
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@scottalanmiller said:
There are huge numbers of people waiting tables hoping that they can beat minimum wage out there. Tons.
Now this I totally believe. The wait staff at a Denny's definitely doesn't do very well. If you want to rake in the cash, work at a place where the average plate is closer to $30 or more.
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TO give some recent perspective, I have a friend who worked two jobs at once to pay the bills:
- Wait staff at Sonic (Fast food, no tips)
- Wait staff at the biggest breastaurant around, one with its own show on MTV
Yes, she made more money at the second.... barely. Not enough to quit the Sonic job or to let it dictate her schedule. The non-tip job paid almost as much as the one that required that she provide her own clothing themed for different days of the year and wear almost nothing all of the time. Even with the kinds of extra tips that that would generate the highly reliable, steady income of running milkshakes out to cars remained attractive. She was most definitely not making $14/hr, $12/hr maybe.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
That may be, but it surely appears that Joe doesn't think tipping is where it's at and is looking to do away with it.
Tipping is NOT where it is at, it is a horribly ridiculous practice that makes no sense at all. Tipping implies that the customers will make arbitrary, case by case service decisions based on the performance of one person in a supply chain. It is absolutely insane. The people who truly matter, the ones making the food, we don't tip. Why do we only tip the ones that we see face to face? Idiotic. Tipping just makes everything worse. It undermines good service and makes all parties unhappy.
i agree with this completely. I don't really understand where tipping came from other than employers refused to pay more.. and the employees found a way to start asking for money directly from the customers.
The idea of tipping a barista at Star Bucks just doesn't make sense to me. If the employer felt that the employee deserved to earn more, then they should pay them more.. if the employer needs to raise prices to make that happen.. they they better.. if that prices them out of their competition, oh well.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
There are huge numbers of people waiting tables hoping that they can beat minimum wage out there. Tons.
Now this I totally believe. The wait staff at a Denny's definitely doesn't do very well. If you want to rake in the cash, work at a place where the average plate is closer to $30 or more.
And those jobs, and the local diner and the Chinese place around the corner are the bulk of wait jobs. The good ones with fancy food are the lesser style. And even when the cost per plate goes up, the plates per staffer goes down. When I eat at nice places, like I did last night, my waiter has at most two tables all night! I have a pretty good idea what they can earn like that.
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@scottalanmiller said:
TO give some recent perspective, I have a friend who worked two jobs at once to pay the bills:
- Wait staff at Sonic (Fast food, no tips)
- Wait staff at the biggest breastaurant around, one with its own show on MTV
Yes, she made more money at the second.... barely. Not enough to quit the Sonic job or to let it dictate her schedule. The non-tip job paid almost as much as the one that required that she provide her own clothing themed for different days of the year and wear almost nothing all of the time. Even with the kinds of extra tips that that would generate the highly reliable, steady income of running milkshakes out to cars remained attractive. She was most definitely not making $14/hr, $12/hr maybe.
It's sad. We only pay medical assistances (who have one year of official training that they have to pay for themselves before they can get the job) $12-14/hr...
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
There are huge numbers of people waiting tables hoping that they can beat minimum wage out there. Tons.
Now this I totally believe. The wait staff at a Denny's definitely doesn't do very well. If you want to rake in the cash, work at a place where the average plate is closer to $30 or more.
EXACTLY MY POINT. I'm not talking about chain shit places, Denny's, WaHo, or ass and titty wing places. I only refer to servers working in real, mid to high price, good restaurants. I could care less what the rest do, I don't eat in chain places. Wanna make more $ waiting tables? Go to a better quality restaurant and perform your job well. Be knowledgeable about the food, the daily specials, etc. Be personable and attentive, not slutty. If your dress code at work does not strike you as "dressy", you'll never make very much. If you have to have dress shirts and slacks laundered and pressed, and you had to go buy acceptably nice shoes, you're on your way to making a living waiting tables.
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@Dashrender said:
@RojoLoco is absolutely right. When I eat at a steakhouse, the average bill for two people is $50. If I'm paying 25% tip that's $12.50 Assuming they have 4 tables an hour (If the steak place is any good, it would be more like 8 tables an hour) that person is making $50/hr for at least 4 hours, and you can assume they will average at minimum 1 table an hour at $12.50 in tips for the other 4 hours of their shift. Before the restaurant pays them a dime, they've already made $250 for the night for an average of $31.25/hr.
Remember you have to not just look at peak numbers, but at average over their shift. Most only have several tables at peak. Often they have time with zero tables. And eight is extreme, not many good restaurants would go above four if even that much. Around those numbers you start to get zero service.
And the better the restaurant, not only the fewer tables per waiter but the slower the turn over. At the best ones that I used to go to in Dallas we'd "own" the table for the entire evening, like in Europe. So our water might only get two or three tables for the WHOLE DAY.
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@scottalanmiller said:
And those jobs, and the local diner and the Chinese place around the corner are the bulk of wait jobs. The good ones with fancy food are the lesser style. And even when the cost per plate goes up, the plates per staffer goes down. When I eat at nice places, like I did last night, my waiter has at most two tables all night! I have a pretty good idea what they can earn like that.
Well, that's area dependent.
Where you are, sure it's limited to two tables an hour. In NYC, that's 5+ tables an hour. Heck, here in Omaha, we have a fairly expensive steak place called Johnny's Italian Steakhouse. A couple can't get out of there for under $80. I've been there nearly every day of the week at least once (probably only once) and it was steadily busy each and every time. The average was 4 tables per wait staff.
