@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:

@matteo-nunziati said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:

@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:

@matteo-nunziati said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:

I agree only if you mean that the SMB market in Europe will never pay for a service. But most of market in Europe is SMB.

Are you sure? Everything I've seen first hand and heard from Europeans talking about problems in the space has been that there is SOHO everywhere, obviously, but then huge gaps where SMB struggles because of regulations and mindset and only larger companies have a tendency to make it.

err... ok give me your definition of SME and SMB. Litteraly translated to italian for me is:

SOHO < SMB < SME < Enterprise.

Most is SOHO and SMB, but services go to SME and enterprise. small companies don't buy!

SOHO < SMB < SME < Large < Enterprise

In the US, SMBs buy a lot, way more than the SME. Because they are a giant market segment. There is no barrier in regulations or from financing between SOHO and SME. Going from SOHO to SME is a clean, gradual step. Talking to companies in Europe, they say that there are large barriers to getting financing in the SMB range because financing only happens if they act like SMEs which makes them inefficient as SMBs and struggle to function.

OK, so yes that's right. basically you stop at SMB unless you really push hard and make a huge leap forward blindfolded, hoping in not collapsing in the trial. Then you land in the SME segment.

Even in EU SMB is a giant segment but they do NOT buy mosty for the mindset not for regulations. regulations discourage the creation of big companies, but has nothing to do with buying services. In my experience it is the mindset which "let's do everything in house has we have not to pay a consultant".

@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:

@matteo-nunziati said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:

I agree only if you mean that the SMB market in Europe will never pay for a service. But most of market in Europe is SMB.

Are you sure? Everything I've seen first hand and heard from Europeans talking about problems in the space has been that there is SOHO everywhere, obviously, but then huge gaps where SMB struggles because of regulations and mindset and only larger companies have a tendency to make it.

err... ok give me your definition of SME and SMB. Litteraly translated to italian for me is:

SOHO < SMB < SME < Enterprise.

Most is SOHO and SMB, but services go to SME and enterprise. small companies don't buy!

@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:

@matteo-nunziati said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:

BACK ON TOPIC:

yeah I really like the pay per service approach. XOA would be nice if you have to pay for a professional setup and/or a flat fee for annual support. Usually opensource companies run on this: ask money for high grade professional support, not for the product.

The issue is that there is a flat fee for each level of service, and that the flat fee is exorbitant compared to just installing it your self.

The only item that isn't currently available AFAIK is XOSAN.

yes I meant 1 price for any kind of product, than have L1/L2 support when needed. Not to pay this for a certain level of features.

just give the all-inclusive and ask for support contracts. hell even SLA could be differentiators but not the product.

@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:

SMB market essentially does not exist in Europe, only SME

WTF?!

I agree only if you mean that the SMB market in Europe will never pay for a service. But most of market in Europe is SMB. And that's not a finance issue IMHO it is just company owners mindset. Every time I've talked to someone about the topic, they say: if you have money you buy stuff otherwise you have to "rent". rent things, people (service is seen as this) and so on...

they still lack the ability to understand the man x hour cost of a solution and how a service can be useful even if a markup is applied to it. just because the service is provided at scale and so it is cheeper.

A common thing I listen to is: I've employed that guy anyway, so he still have to do something for this company. man x hour if a fixed cost. adding a service is extra cost. They lack the ability to understand that a service frees you from non core-business tasks.

example:

I was talking about this very topic: put a couple of things in housing. small datacenter in town, tier 2. remove the electicity power cost and you easily see how an housing in a tier 2 datasenter 15' min from your company is really more valuable than the closet+home style AC you put in it. not to talk about security systems and emergency systems.

still: they almost prefer to build a closet. because if you project the cost on 10 year it is cheeper. well: 10 years for a server closet in an SMB? wrong projection timeframe sorry. in 10 years everything will be upsidedown !

BACK ON TOPIC:

yeah I really like the pay per service approach. XOA would be nice if you have to pay for a professional setup and/or a flat fee for annual support. Usually opensource companies run on this: ask money for high grade professional support, not for the product.

never been in enterprise. always in envs with <=50 people - these includes warehouse guys.

• first 7 years as researcher at university, mine was a small group (<10 people), approach was: no retirement money just salary. fixed salary no strict timeframse, just get the job done then feel free to go and return.

• then I've opened a company. a production one. terrible mistake, no commercial experience. closed it after 3 years. It was something like 24h per day at work.

• 1 year as consultant in small comapnies - production, machine vision. you were the consultatnt, you were expensive, better to not waste your time with stupid stuff (like boss's pc is stalling)

now it's my second year in a pure commercial business - buy'n'sell. Terrible place. no planning, hysteria all around up to the company owner. today I've cleaned up the warehouse as job. and yes I've written some stuff into an excel sheet. for a 15 mins I've got a chat with altaro support for a issue. REALLY derailing.

this would not happen in a bigger company.

On the other side in these 2 years I've literally built their infrastructure, from wiring the company with fiber up to introducing virtualization, backups, standardized printing (no more 15 different printers from 100 vendors) and so... now switching ERP (PITA MAXIMUM!). I've written a couple of web apps. So basically I've been a 360° IT kid, from engineering to fixing printers

can't do this in enterprise. Don't know how much of a drama can be switch to this.

In Italy people is going away from enterprises in search of less-I'm-a-robot-doing-all-the-same-thing-every-damn-day job.

on the left it is italian smb, on the right italian enterprises.

@JaredBusch I also didn't mind about zerto at the time because my resellers (asked a couple) offered really high prices - but don't remember the specific amount.

@scottalanmiller said in Zertø Virtual Replication:

@matteo-nunziati said in Zertø Virtual Replication:

@scottalanmiller said in Zertø Virtual Replication:

well, unless starwind was not free when I've set up this stuff months ago. they've missed my deadline for a few weeks.

They've been unofficially free for a long time and always free on two nodes, I think. Definitely was available.

officially they were free on 2 node SDS, not hyperconverged [1]. I looked at the site to discover they were officially free if you had a couple of spare servers for SDS. the HC solution has been freed just later.

there was a spiceworks licence but I didn't fit specs.

just discarded them due to official website info

[1] HC or something similar. anyway: HA on 2 nodes with compute + storage on both nodes.

@scottalanmiller said in Zertø Virtual Replication:

@matteo-nunziati said in Zertø Virtual Replication:

Also, does starwind work on different storages without perf. loss? e.g. ssd/sas raid 10 on main server vs. ORB10 on sata 7.2k drives on replica server (used as failover not HA).

It would turn you into HA for one thing, so that's a big bonus. The only time you'd take a performance hit would be if you have cache misses and you need to wait for write commits. Not sure if you can disable the commit to improve the speed, but that would add some risk. But with the cache, it might be overall faster, rather than slower, depending on cache and workload.

you mean their own in RAM cache or HW RAID controller cache? or any other RAM cache?

@scottalanmiller said in Zertø Virtual Replication:

They've been unofficially free for a long time and always free on two nodes, I think. Definitely was available.

bloody hell!

@Dashrender on winter cats want to go outside in the morning. On summer the want breakfast. generally speaking they want you around for them to be considered

"cats' alarm" is something around 500 to 600 am depending on season. Damn.
alarm is 700am.
then the second one at 710am.

wash, dress, feed cats, prepare breakfast (mostly put stuff on the table nothing hot even on winter, but a cup of camomille for my wife is there).

Now it's something like 730/745am, go upstairs bring my daugther and put her on the "big bed" with my wife.
Have my breakfast, move my daughter in the toilet around 800am. brush my teeth.

stay with her untill 815am, then go to work.

commuting is around 20 minutes.

out of office around 1830-1845. ultra fast driving at home. Prepare the dinner. have a dinner around 2000. fight with my daughter to have her in bed around 2130. wait 'till 2200 for her to be asleep. tideup kichen.

have a bit of relax. hell its midnight to 100am better to sleep. cats' alarm. AAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHH.

btw I wash in the morning on winter, opposite on summer: really need a shower before bed these times when we have 35 celsius all day long.

@scottalanmiller said in Zertø Virtual Replication:

This is great for long distance (over the WAN), but when local, I know of no case where you'd use this. You'd always use Starwind instead. Vastly more powerful, same price. Free.

well, unless starwind was not free when I've set up this stuff months ago. they've missed my deadline for a few weeks.
Also, does starwind work on different storages without perf. loss? e.g. ssd/sas raid 10 on main server vs. ORB10 on sata 7.2k drives on replica server (used as failover not HA).

Also, yes I'm going to move the stuff offsite. But previous question, while offtopic, still holds.

@JaredBusch maybe in the vmware ecosystem it can fit, but I do not see any fit for it in hyper-v

@scottalanmiller said in Zertø Virtual Replication:

@bigbear said in Zertø Virtual Replication:

@scottalanmiller I haven't heard of Veeam since maybe 2009 or 2008. I feel like it was just getting started then.

This is basically realtime data protection, full fidelity backups? Perusing their website now...

Veeam has been the top player in the backup space for most of the 2010s. They are pretty much the only big name in backups and disaster recovery any more. They are so big that they are a driving factor as to why Vmware and Hyper-V adoption has been so high. Many people base their hypervisor decisions on what Veeam supports!

also if one is looking for money considerations, hyper-v 2016 has it's own replication. it's one-to-one, but it runs up to every 5 seconds rpo if needed (and loads are not devastating - but usually they aren't in smb). and rto is really fast even with mmc snap-in.

I'm currently running hyper-v native replication + altaro for backups. Can understand other solutions for vmware, but on hyper-v on replication you have to beat hyper-v itself price-wise and veeam on reliability. Also with veeam you get backup. zerto "just" replicates: you need additional money for backup.

we have got nethsecurity in our company and then we have switched to watchguard. watchguard is way more aexpensive than what you can expect from such a thing ( just discovered later).

NethSecurity. Unfortunately our NS reseller policy was: we own the firewall/UTM password, not you. When I've been hired we had an internal briefing and company choosen to "fire" the NS supplier.

New supplier, new distribution channel, new UTM. Watchguard setup is quite convoluted: you have to jump among a number of GUIs to setup properly something. Also layer filtering is not really well separated - at least to me: you have a chaos of layer 3+ setup.

@JaredBusch not necessarily abnormal but surely a mix of 3 independent repos.

@JaredBusch to me it seems that they made an error signing the index file in the database. Try issue a bug.

@DustinB3403 said in I can't even:

How is this person in charge of designing the system without any freaking clue about where the hypervisor is installed too, what the array configuration should look like and lastly what and why an OBR is better than splitting arrays!

Already has an in depth BA, but come on . . .

well.. this is how I work here

@Francesco-Provino said in Going over SFF: what do you think of micro business-grade desktops?:

@matteo-nunziati I think that now they can have ssd… do you have any pictures of that in the field? How they compared VS the size of an iPad? Standard mount or behind the screen?

I'll get some shots tomorrow (if I remember). this vs ipad: neglecting thickness this is between an ipad and an ipad mini.
we simply keep it on the desk or behind the screen depending on the app. no vesa mount (and not included with the models from hp/dell we buyed)

@JaredBusch said in Going over SFF: what do you think of micro business-grade desktops?:

@Francesco-Provino said in Going over SFF: what do you think of micro business-grade desktops?:

@matteo-nunziati I think that now they can have ssd… do you have any pictures of that in the field? How they compared VS the size of an iPad? Standard mount or behind the screen?

You can also buy them with an i7. So I cannot see how it cannot work for anyone. Getone with an i7, SSD, and 16GB of RAM and it is way more power than needed for almost everyone.

at the time it was a mix of requirements vs cost. dell didn't provide i5+ssd+8gb ram in Italy, so we gone for the 3040.