Just How Hard is University to Overcome
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@quixoticjeremy said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@scottalanmiller said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@penguinwrangler said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
In Missouri, we have what is called the A+ program. HS kids go through a program and have to meet certain requirements. Once they do, their first two years of college at a community college is free. My kids are doing this.
SUNY (State University of NY) is all free now, except for the extremely wealthy, I'm told. It is a new program, so I know basically nothing about it. And SUNY is one of the top college names in the world.
It's free for the low end of the income bracket. There are a number of stipulation that go along with the excelsior scholarship.
Actually as someone who lives here, it's not just simply the low end, it is a large portion of the populace that seems to be receiving it. Quite a few of my friends have gone back to or are attending college purely because of this program, none of them being exceedingly poor.
I live just a few hours south of you and work in the system. It's a bit more far reaching then what I've said yes. It's a step in the right direction but it's baby step. It effects households under a combined income of $100,000. So it's generally low-mid to lower income. The nice thing for the state, and tax payers, is that it takes effect after all other grants take effect. It will only cover 6,470$ per semester... Which is really nice for us small and community schools.
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@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@quixoticjeremy said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@scottalanmiller said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@penguinwrangler said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
In Missouri, we have what is called the A+ program. HS kids go through a program and have to meet certain requirements. Once they do, their first two years of college at a community college is free. My kids are doing this.
SUNY (State University of NY) is all free now, except for the extremely wealthy, I'm told. It is a new program, so I know basically nothing about it. And SUNY is one of the top college names in the world.
It's free for the low end of the income bracket. There are a number of stipulation that go along with the excelsior scholarship.
Actually as someone who lives here, it's not just simply the low end, it is a large portion of the populace that seems to be receiving it. Quite a few of my friends have gone back to or are attending college purely because of this program, none of them being exceedingly poor.
I live just a few hours south of you and work in the system. It's a bit more far reaching then what I've said yes. It's a step in the right direction but it's baby step. It effects households under a combined income of $100,000. So it's generally low-mid to lower income. The nice thing for the state, and tax payers, is that it takes effect after all other grants take effect. It will only cover 6,470$ per semester... Which is really nice for us small and community schools.
Okay this makes sense as all of my friends live in that under 100k area lol.
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@quixoticjeremy said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@quixoticjeremy said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@scottalanmiller said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@penguinwrangler said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
In Missouri, we have what is called the A+ program. HS kids go through a program and have to meet certain requirements. Once they do, their first two years of college at a community college is free. My kids are doing this.
SUNY (State University of NY) is all free now, except for the extremely wealthy, I'm told. It is a new program, so I know basically nothing about it. And SUNY is one of the top college names in the world.
It's free for the low end of the income bracket. There are a number of stipulation that go along with the excelsior scholarship.
Actually as someone who lives here, it's not just simply the low end, it is a large portion of the populace that seems to be receiving it. Quite a few of my friends have gone back to or are attending college purely because of this program, none of them being exceedingly poor.
I live just a few hours south of you and work in the system. It's a bit more far reaching then what I've said yes. It's a step in the right direction but it's baby step. It effects households under a combined income of $100,000. So it's generally low-mid to lower income. The nice thing for the state, and tax payers, is that it takes effect after all other grants take effect. It will only cover 6,470$ per semester... Which is really nice for us small and community schools.
Okay this makes sense as all of my friends live in that under 100k area lol.
Right. I live in the poorest county in NY and even here it's not hard for a two income home to be over the mark. It's still a great program for what it is and what it is trying to accomplish... But I don't think it went far enough.
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@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@quixoticjeremy said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@quixoticjeremy said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@scottalanmiller said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@penguinwrangler said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
In Missouri, we have what is called the A+ program. HS kids go through a program and have to meet certain requirements. Once they do, their first two years of college at a community college is free. My kids are doing this.
SUNY (State University of NY) is all free now, except for the extremely wealthy, I'm told. It is a new program, so I know basically nothing about it. And SUNY is one of the top college names in the world.
It's free for the low end of the income bracket. There are a number of stipulation that go along with the excelsior scholarship.
Actually as someone who lives here, it's not just simply the low end, it is a large portion of the populace that seems to be receiving it. Quite a few of my friends have gone back to or are attending college purely because of this program, none of them being exceedingly poor.
I live just a few hours south of you and work in the system. It's a bit more far reaching then what I've said yes. It's a step in the right direction but it's baby step. It effects households under a combined income of $100,000. So it's generally low-mid to lower income. The nice thing for the state, and tax payers, is that it takes effect after all other grants take effect. It will only cover 6,470$ per semester... Which is really nice for us small and community schools.
Okay this makes sense as all of my friends live in that under 100k area lol.
Right. I live in the poorest county in NY and even here it's not hard for a two income home to be over the mark.
Average household income in the two towns I grew up in between are 37k and 45k.
edit (at least last I checked which admittedly was a few years ago)
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@quixoticjeremy said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@quixoticjeremy said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@quixoticjeremy said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@scottalanmiller said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@penguinwrangler said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
In Missouri, we have what is called the A+ program. HS kids go through a program and have to meet certain requirements. Once they do, their first two years of college at a community college is free. My kids are doing this.
SUNY (State University of NY) is all free now, except for the extremely wealthy, I'm told. It is a new program, so I know basically nothing about it. And SUNY is one of the top college names in the world.
It's free for the low end of the income bracket. There are a number of stipulation that go along with the excelsior scholarship.
Actually as someone who lives here, it's not just simply the low end, it is a large portion of the populace that seems to be receiving it. Quite a few of my friends have gone back to or are attending college purely because of this program, none of them being exceedingly poor.
I live just a few hours south of you and work in the system. It's a bit more far reaching then what I've said yes. It's a step in the right direction but it's baby step. It effects households under a combined income of $100,000. So it's generally low-mid to lower income. The nice thing for the state, and tax payers, is that it takes effect after all other grants take effect. It will only cover 6,470$ per semester... Which is really nice for us small and community schools.
Okay this makes sense as all of my friends live in that under 100k area lol.
Right. I live in the poorest county in NY and even here it's not hard for a two income home to be over the mark.
Average household income in the two towns I grew up in between are 37k and 45k.
edit (at least last I checked which admittedly was a few years ago)
Same. I just checked and we've actually moved up on the list. We're now the 41st richest county. Out of 62. That wasn't the case when I was in school.
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@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@quixoticjeremy said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@quixoticjeremy said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@quixoticjeremy said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@scottalanmiller said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@penguinwrangler said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
In Missouri, we have what is called the A+ program. HS kids go through a program and have to meet certain requirements. Once they do, their first two years of college at a community college is free. My kids are doing this.
SUNY (State University of NY) is all free now, except for the extremely wealthy, I'm told. It is a new program, so I know basically nothing about it. And SUNY is one of the top college names in the world.
It's free for the low end of the income bracket. There are a number of stipulation that go along with the excelsior scholarship.
Actually as someone who lives here, it's not just simply the low end, it is a large portion of the populace that seems to be receiving it. Quite a few of my friends have gone back to or are attending college purely because of this program, none of them being exceedingly poor.
I live just a few hours south of you and work in the system. It's a bit more far reaching then what I've said yes. It's a step in the right direction but it's baby step. It effects households under a combined income of $100,000. So it's generally low-mid to lower income. The nice thing for the state, and tax payers, is that it takes effect after all other grants take effect. It will only cover 6,470$ per semester... Which is really nice for us small and community schools.
Okay this makes sense as all of my friends live in that under 100k area lol.
Right. I live in the poorest county in NY and even here it's not hard for a two income home to be over the mark.
Average household income in the two towns I grew up in between are 37k and 45k.
edit (at least last I checked which admittedly was a few years ago)
Same. I just checked and we've actually moved up on the list. We're now the 41st richest county. Out of 62. That wasn't the case when I was in school.
The two towns I was talking about have now moved up to 41k and 47k respectively
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@scottalanmiller said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@quixoticjeremy said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@penguinwrangler said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
In Missouri, we have what is called the A+ program. HS kids go through a program and have to meet certain requirements. Once they do, their first two years of college at a community college is free. My kids are doing this.
It's not just cost though. It's also invested time. Time spent on a college campus is time not earning money.
I don't even want to think about the hours I spent at my first degree....
I calculated two semesters at grad school. It was 80-90 hours a week.
Yeah, think about what kind of career you could have built with that time! Even at $10/hr, that is a lot of money.
That's one of the reasons I never finished that degree. I would have spent ~1000 hours working on a thesis with no real tangible benefit after graduation. I couldn't make the numbers work in my head.
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@scottalanmiller said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@tim_g said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
For example...
if I came to you for a management position with only a bunch of IT experience with MCSEs and Linux certs
versus:
someone else coming to you with a bunch of IT experience, MCSEs and Linux certs, plus an MBA...
Which would you choose?
Just watched the video. Good stuff and makes sense. I've been wanting to do something small on the side for a long time and never really thought of the two together. I don't have a lot of time but I suppose i don't need to take on anything I can't handle.
This may be the thing to make me serious about getting started.
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@scottalanmiller said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
So for reference, student loans, for those able to get them (many of us cannot so these are not realistic numbers, many students must use credit cards for this) run from 4.3% to 6.8%. That's the first step.
Actually, 8% is far more common on US Gov't loans, even when the mortgage and other markets were FAR below that. The mandated cap is 8%, and on repayment it stayed at the cap even when it didn't have to.
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I've gone through this thread, and other than agreeing with a lot of it and learning how much I want to watch @scottalanmiller and @Dashrender sit in front of a camera and discuss just about anything, I have some fundamental questions on the topic and comments in general:
- Can we really assume working in IT without a degree is as viable as it was before? My thoughts are "yes and no" since it is so much simpler to start a small business than it's ever been before with IT, but what about simply "getting a job"?
- I cannot and will not equate the assumption that you are out of the working world or wasting your time while in college. Maybe partying was or is a common occurrence in some or many experiences, but it was not mine. I have never done college without working at least 30 hours a week and often 40 to 50. Ironically, I think I would've gotten more out of college had I been able to go full time.
- I had the experience of being 20+ years old when starting college, and working 2 and 3 jobs before that knowing I couldn't break that cycle. I went to university and I did. I can't say it's because of university specifically, but I do think there is an intangibility to going beyond HS and then into a career. You have to go to HS. You choose to go to College/University. When you get out you are motivated to make something of that. You might be the person that is motivated to do that out of HS, but more generally you are really motivated to do it when you get out of college because you chose to do it, and many employers see that value, in my experience and opinion.
Now, full disclosure I'm a college professor at the CC level. I'm not promoting this opinion out of any sort of CYA or job-security mentality, I assure you. Also, when it comes to the financial and time costs for college, those are very real, and the source of where I agree with a lot of what I'm reading here. I think the elements beyond money and time have to be accounted for (pun intended). There are intangible benefits to the College/University experience that matter. To put it in academic terms, they are qualitative and not quantitative. I could go on, but in the interest of the time value it takes to read this...
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@worden2 said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
I've gone through this thread, and other than agreeing with a lot of it and learning how much I want to watch @scottalanmiller and @Dashrender sit in front of a camera and discuss just about anything, I have some fundamental questions on the topic and comments in general:
- Can we really assume working in IT without a degree is as viable as it was before? My thoughts are "yes and no" since it is so much simpler to start a small business than it's ever been before with IT, but what about simply "getting a job"?
- I cannot and will not equate the assumption that you are out of the working world or wasting your time while in college. Maybe partying was or is a common occurrence in some or many experiences, but it was not mine. I have never done college without working at least 30 hours a week and often 40 to 50. Ironically, I think I would've gotten more out of college had I been able to go full time.
- I had the experience of being 20+ years old when starting college, and working 2 and 3 jobs before that knowing I couldn't break that cycle. I went to university and I did. I can't say it's because of university specifically, but I do think there is an intangibility to going beyond HS and then into a career. You have to go to HS. You choose to go to College/University. When you get out you are motivated to make something of that. You might be the person that is motivated to do that out of HS, but more generally you are really motivated to do it when you get out of college because you chose to do it, and many employers see that value, in my experience and opinion.
Now, full disclosure I'm a college professor at the CC level. I'm not promoting this opinion out of any sort of CYA or job-security mentality, I assure you. Also, when it comes to the financial and time costs for college, those are very real, and the source of where I agree with a lot of what I'm reading here. I think the elements beyond money and time have to be accounted for (pun intended). There are intangible benefits to the College/University experience that matter. To put it in academic terms, they are qualitative and not quantitative. I could go on, but in the interest of the time value it takes to read this...
So is my wife and she completely does not accept Scott's premise. It used to lead to fights but now we just don't talk about it.
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@dashrender For me personally, it's almost stressful, because as an IT educator I straddle both realities. As for your last point, my wife and I just had our 20th anniversary, btw. I know of what you speak, but do not speak of it!
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@worden2 said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@dashrender For me personally, it's almost stressful, because as an IT educator I straddle both realities. As for your last point, my wife and I just had our 20th anniversary, btw. I know of what you speak, but do not speak of it!
20 years, nice. I've been married for 16, together for 23.
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@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@quixoticjeremy said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@scottalanmiller said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@penguinwrangler said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
In Missouri, we have what is called the A+ program. HS kids go through a program and have to meet certain requirements. Once they do, their first two years of college at a community college is free. My kids are doing this.
SUNY (State University of NY) is all free now, except for the extremely wealthy, I'm told. It is a new program, so I know basically nothing about it. And SUNY is one of the top college names in the world.
It's free for the low end of the income bracket. There are a number of stipulation that go along with the excelsior scholarship.
Actually as someone who lives here, it's not just simply the low end, it is a large portion of the populace that seems to be receiving it. Quite a few of my friends have gone back to or are attending college purely because of this program, none of them being exceedingly poor.
I live just a few hours south of you and work in the system. It's a bit more far reaching then what I've said yes. It's a step in the right direction but it's baby step. It effects households under a combined income of $100,000. So it's generally low-mid to lower income. The nice thing for the state, and tax payers, is that it takes effect after all other grants take effect. It will only cover 6,470$ per semester... Which is really nice for us small and community schools.
That's pretty shitty that they consider combined income. So a single person making tons of money can go to school for free, but a couple with kids making really low income both working trying to make ends meet have to pay to go to school. Typical.
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@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@quixoticjeremy said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@quixoticjeremy said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@coliver said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@scottalanmiller said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@penguinwrangler said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
In Missouri, we have what is called the A+ program. HS kids go through a program and have to meet certain requirements. Once they do, their first two years of college at a community college is free. My kids are doing this.
SUNY (State University of NY) is all free now, except for the extremely wealthy, I'm told. It is a new program, so I know basically nothing about it. And SUNY is one of the top college names in the world.
It's free for the low end of the income bracket. There are a number of stipulation that go along with the excelsior scholarship.
Actually as someone who lives here, it's not just simply the low end, it is a large portion of the populace that seems to be receiving it. Quite a few of my friends have gone back to or are attending college purely because of this program, none of them being exceedingly poor.
I live just a few hours south of you and work in the system. It's a bit more far reaching then what I've said yes. It's a step in the right direction but it's baby step. It effects households under a combined income of $100,000. So it's generally low-mid to lower income. The nice thing for the state, and tax payers, is that it takes effect after all other grants take effect. It will only cover 6,470$ per semester... Which is really nice for us small and community schools.
Okay this makes sense as all of my friends live in that under 100k area lol.
Right. I live in the poorest county in NY and even here it's not hard for a two income home to be over the mark. It's still a great program for what it is and what it is trying to accomplish... But I don't think it went far enough.
Not at all.
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@worden2 said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
@scottalanmiller said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
So for reference, student loans, for those able to get them (many of us cannot so these are not realistic numbers, many students must use credit cards for this) run from 4.3% to 6.8%. That's the first step.
Actually, 8% is far more common on US Gov't loans, even when the mortgage and other markets were FAR below that. The mandated cap is 8%, and on repayment it stayed at the cap even when it didn't have to.
I was trying to be insanely conservative with the numbers to make sure that there was absolutely no way anyone could say that I was skewing it towards not going to university having an advantage. In the real world, I know it makes my case far more.
Eight percent though, wow.
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@worden2 said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
- Can we really assume working in IT without a degree is as viable as it was before? My thoughts are "yes and no" since it is so much simpler to start a small business than it's ever been before with IT, but what about simply "getting a job"?
As viable? No, it is insanely more viable. In the 1980s, getting into IT without a degree was essentially impossible because access to enterprise computer systems and knowledge about them and compilers and tooling and software was gated behind the "university paywall." This has gradually gone away over time and now we are so dramatically the other way that there has never been any time in history that skipping formal education for more in someone's favor. The idea that college has benefits to the career is a holdover from the "paywall" era and is repeated without being investigated.
I have no idea where the idea that "oh it was easy to not go to college long ago" comes from, but it's marketing and has no basis in truth. Not only do we now have the ability for absolutely anyone to educate themselves, we have more ability than ever to showcase our skills and talents and we have employers who understand the value of self education more than ever before. Every factor involved has gone in the same direction.
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@worden2 said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
- I cannot and will not equate the assumption that you are out of the working world or wasting your time while in college. Maybe partying was or is a common occurrence in some or many experiences, but it was not mine. I have never done college without working at least 30 hours a week and often 40 to 50.
I did the same, paid my way through college. But every hour spent in college was time spent neither gaining experience nor learning at an appropriate pace. That's one of the biggest problems with college courses - the pace is far too slow. We train students no only to require that they be hand fed their education (for an industry that absolutely requires the ability to education ourselves) and teaches students to learn at a very slow pace.
Someone working the same 30 - 50 hours a week, and teaching themselves at home should move at easily 400% the pace of college classes, while having more money.
Partying is only one problem. Leisurely learning, busy work, commuting, context switching between classes, etc. College is an inefficient learning system at best and actually gets in the way of learning at worst. In my experience, if someone is going to be successful in IT, they will have found college to have been an educational barrier.
For the record, I worked 50 hours a week and went to school at triple the full time rate to maximize my value of my educational dollar. I took it as seriously as it could be taken. And I couldn't make it make educational sense nor career sense.
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@worden2 said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
- I had the experience of being 20+ years old when starting college, and working 2 and 3 jobs before that knowing I couldn't break that cycle.
I know lots and lots of people who broke that cycle. What made you feel that you could not break it in your situation? What did you do as your educational alternatives? Did you do certs on your own? Build a home lab? Do volunteer work? Build a project portfolio? Make your own software? Start your own business?
This is where I always seem to find the breakdown. People normally, and I don't know yet in your case, compare the alternative to going to college to having done nothing. Had I done nothing, of course I would not have moved forward. But I dropped out of college, worked my butt off doing any work I could find, worked every job I could fit in my schedule, built a home lab, did every resume building exercise that I could and had zero issues moving forward at many times the pace of anyone I knew doing college for similar work.
That you didn't mention the educational pursuits that failed you, I'm guessing you didn't have any. That college is better than doing nothing at all is not in question. That college does not live up to what people should be doing instead of college in order to further their careers is the point.
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@worden2 said in Just How Hard is University to Overcome:
You have to go to HS. You choose to go to College/University. When you get out you are motivated to make something of that. You might be the person that is motivated to do that out of HS, but more generally you are really motivated to do it when you get out of college because you chose to do it, and many employers see that value, in my experience and opinion.
So here are my thoughts here...
- I want to hire motivated people. If someone isn't motivated naturally (e.g. out of high school) then they aren't someone I want to hire in IT and not someone I tend to see excel in IT. If they need to be pushed to try hard, IT is a really bad field for them. They will struggle anywhere, but IT more than most places.
- Maybe you were motivated coming out of college, but that's not the general experience. College is demotivational for most people. It's many years of "taking it easy" that encourages a sense of relaxation. Motivation is specifically something I see lacking from the majority of college graduates. Like someone coming back from a month long vacation, they are used to relaxing and don't normally have the work history or ethic that you hope for and require more effort to get going than their counterparts.
- The "chose to do it" thing makes no sense because the counterparts "chose to" teach themselves and get a jump on their careers. The thing that they "chose to do" is the more challenging and impressive. And the market bears this up with them getting jobs faster and more easily. When someone says they "proved themselves" in college I have to remind them that I went to college and know how easy college generally is (or at least can be.) It's life's biggest vacation and if they think that that was not taking the easy way out, then I'm fearful that they aren't mentally prepared for the world of work. They have their bar set way too low.
- What we often see from college grads is a sense of entitlement. They often feel superior while having done less work and generally being less prepared to do their jobs. But they expect more from doing the same as others.
