Hours I work/PTO
-
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
Even after getting them to NYC and up to Rome, NY (go look at THAT distance on a map) they could not understand that they were not in New York City. They were in a tiny city, in rural NY, surrounded by fields, and as far from NYC as they thought originally that NYC was from Texas... and they would keep asking people "what borough they were in.. is this the Bronx?"
Their lack of geographic understanding, scale and maps was so extreme that even observation could not make them understand where they were or had been. Once you lack all of that background, you are really lost. We are all so used to undestanding those things that it is hard to realize that people do not.
Good or bad, I've personally never had enough of a conversation with someone to realize they were at that low of an understanding of geography.... just wow!
-
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
Nope. This doesn't take any skills to read a US map other than the fact that you need to know what words are. You can clearly see that New York is much further than Tennessee.
But they didnt know where Tennessee was either. Knowing that NY is beyond Tennessee is useless if you think Tennessee is just twenty minutes away. Memphis was farther than they thought NY was. In absolute terms they thought NY was closer than Memphis was. In relationship terms they knew NY was on the other side of it. They didn't understand the scale of the country. They thought Canada was only about five hours north of Texas.
Again, if you've ever seen that picture, you know where things are. And if you are that clueless you could just ask, before you begin your trip.
But how does seeing that picture help them understand the scale? If you can't read a map and don't have that spacial ability, and TONS of people do not, it's useless. They can't tell that NY is 27 hours away (it was) or as close as Memphis.
In fact MOST people can't gauge distance like that well. If you can, you are in the minority.
You are caught up on the fact that you know where these things are. They didn't even know where the Texas border was. Their idea of distances was totally messed up.
Looking at the map, even without specific distances, with a string you could tell that NY is like 1.6 time as far as Memphis.
Sure, but as I keep pointing out, that's not relevant and based on a misunderstanding of what I said. They DID know that it was farther, bu tthey thought that memphis was "around the corner."
-
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
Even after getting them to NYC and up to Rome, NY (go look at THAT distance on a map) they could not understand that they were not in New York City. They were in a tiny city, in rural NY, surrounded by fields, and as far from NYC as they thought originally that NYC was from Texas... and they would keep asking people "what borough they were in.. is this the Bronx?"
Their lack of geographic understanding, scale and maps was so extreme that even observation could not make them understand where they were or had been. Once you lack all of that background, you are really lost. We are all so used to undestanding those things that it is hard to realize that people do not.
Good or bad, I've personally never had enough of a conversation with someone to realize they were at that low of an understanding of geography.... just wow!
I've met a lot. These guys were on the extreme end, but I've know a number of homeless (these guys were only homeless a day or two, not as a lifestyle) and it is pretty common in the extreme poor end of things. When maps and travel simply don't exist to you, understanding distance, time, cost... it's all things that don't apply to you.
-
I've had affluent, well educated New Yorkers who think that Canada is a state or that the northern US border, just two counties away from them, was France. That the average person has little to no grasp of geography should not be a surprise.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
Nope. This doesn't take any skills to read a US map other than the fact that you need to know what words are. You can clearly see that New York is much further than Tennessee.
But they didnt know where Tennessee was either. Knowing that NY is beyond Tennessee is useless if you think Tennessee is just twenty minutes away. Memphis was farther than they thought NY was. In absolute terms they thought NY was closer than Memphis was. In relationship terms they knew NY was on the other side of it. They didn't understand the scale of the country. They thought Canada was only about five hours north of Texas.
Again, if you've ever seen that picture, you know where things are. And if you are that clueless you could just ask, before you begin your trip.
But how does seeing that picture help them understand the scale? If you can't read a map and don't have that spacial ability, and TONS of people do not, it's useless. They can't tell that NY is 27 hours away (it was) or as close as Memphis.
In fact MOST people can't gauge distance like that well. If you can, you are in the minority.
You are caught up on the fact that you know where these things are. They didn't even know where the Texas border was. Their idea of distances was totally messed up.
Looking at the map, even without specific distances, with a string you could tell that NY is like 1.6 time as far as Memphis.
Sure, but as I keep pointing out, that's not relevant and based on a misunderstanding of what I said. They DID know that it was farther, bu tthey thought that memphis was "around the corner."
They way you're explaining that whole memphis vs NY distance was definitely confusing for me until you put the explanation out there.
-
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
So they were being willfully ignorant. If you ask a question whether on the Internet or in person and refuse to believe what the person is telling you then there is no excuse.
That's not entirely true. Remember that I said that I felt that they had probably asked a LOT of people and gotten all kinds of answers. Even the sister in NY had no idea where she was in the state and had given them bad directions.
So anything I said was in conflict with what she alone had told them.
So you can't quite call it wilful ignorance. They didn't have a point of reference to determine which sources were accurate and which were not.
It's not as obvious as SW where there is an overwhelming body of evidence. I was a stranger giving them a lift and as I was coming from Paris, TX was just as likely to be crazy about distances as any other random resource.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
Even after getting them to NYC and up to Rome, NY (go look at THAT distance on a map) they could not understand that they were not in New York City. They were in a tiny city, in rural NY, surrounded by fields, and as far from NYC as they thought originally that NYC was from Texas... and they would keep asking people "what borough they were in.. is this the Bronx?"
Their lack of geographic understanding, scale and maps was so extreme that even observation could not make them understand where they were or had been. Once you lack all of that background, you are really lost. We are all so used to undestanding those things that it is hard to realize that people do not.
Good or bad, I've personally never had enough of a conversation with someone to realize they were at that low of an understanding of geography.... just wow!
I've met a lot. These guys were on the extreme end, but I've know a number of homeless (these guys were only homeless a day or two, not as a lifestyle) and it is pretty common in the extreme poor end of things. When maps and travel simply don't exist to you, understanding distance, time, cost... it's all things that don't apply to you.
Sure, in the truly homeless I can understand that, but much beyond that, it seems like a pure failing of their education - which you keep telling us is so horrible in Tx... damn.. just didn't seem to be possible to be as bad as you made it out to be, but then again, that's just a single example of non homeless people you've presented... can't be taken as anything close to the norm with just that one case.
-
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@johnhooks said in Hours I work/PTO:
Nope. This doesn't take any skills to read a US map other than the fact that you need to know what words are. You can clearly see that New York is much further than Tennessee.
But they didnt know where Tennessee was either. Knowing that NY is beyond Tennessee is useless if you think Tennessee is just twenty minutes away. Memphis was farther than they thought NY was. In absolute terms they thought NY was closer than Memphis was. In relationship terms they knew NY was on the other side of it. They didn't understand the scale of the country. They thought Canada was only about five hours north of Texas.
Again, if you've ever seen that picture, you know where things are. And if you are that clueless you could just ask, before you begin your trip.
But how does seeing that picture help them understand the scale? If you can't read a map and don't have that spacial ability, and TONS of people do not, it's useless. They can't tell that NY is 27 hours away (it was) or as close as Memphis.
In fact MOST people can't gauge distance like that well. If you can, you are in the minority.
You are caught up on the fact that you know where these things are. They didn't even know where the Texas border was. Their idea of distances was totally messed up.
Looking at the map, even without specific distances, with a string you could tell that NY is like 1.6 time as far as Memphis.
Sure, but as I keep pointing out, that's not relevant and based on a misunderstanding of what I said. They DID know that it was farther, bu tthey thought that memphis was "around the corner."
They way you're explaining that whole memphis vs NY distance was definitely confusing for me until you put the explanation out there.
Yeah, took me a bit to realize what people were thinking that I meant.
-
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
Even after getting them to NYC and up to Rome, NY (go look at THAT distance on a map) they could not understand that they were not in New York City. They were in a tiny city, in rural NY, surrounded by fields, and as far from NYC as they thought originally that NYC was from Texas... and they would keep asking people "what borough they were in.. is this the Bronx?"
Their lack of geographic understanding, scale and maps was so extreme that even observation could not make them understand where they were or had been. Once you lack all of that background, you are really lost. We are all so used to undestanding those things that it is hard to realize that people do not.
Good or bad, I've personally never had enough of a conversation with someone to realize they were at that low of an understanding of geography.... just wow!
I've met a lot. These guys were on the extreme end, but I've know a number of homeless (these guys were only homeless a day or two, not as a lifestyle) and it is pretty common in the extreme poor end of things. When maps and travel simply don't exist to you, understanding distance, time, cost... it's all things that don't apply to you.
Sure, in the truly homeless I can understand that, but much beyond that, it seems like a pure failing of their education - which you keep telling us is so horrible in Tx... damn.. just didn't seem to be possible to be as bad as you made it out to be, but then again, that's just a single example of non homeless people you've presented... can't be taken as anything close to the norm with just that one case.
Well I know of a teacher in TX that just learned last night that there is a bathroom thing going on in the US.
-
That's actually a great example. I know of Texas educators who get these distances wrong too. not these exact ones, but similar ones. Like thinking that Central America is far and the northern US is near, when the opposite is true. When that's a cultural thinking and you grow up with it, you never know to question it.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
Even after getting them to NYC and up to Rome, NY (go look at THAT distance on a map) they could not understand that they were not in New York City. They were in a tiny city, in rural NY, surrounded by fields, and as far from NYC as they thought originally that NYC was from Texas... and they would keep asking people "what borough they were in.. is this the Bronx?"
Their lack of geographic understanding, scale and maps was so extreme that even observation could not make them understand where they were or had been. Once you lack all of that background, you are really lost. We are all so used to undestanding those things that it is hard to realize that people do not.
Good or bad, I've personally never had enough of a conversation with someone to realize they were at that low of an understanding of geography.... just wow!
I've met a lot. These guys were on the extreme end, but I've know a number of homeless (these guys were only homeless a day or two, not as a lifestyle) and it is pretty common in the extreme poor end of things. When maps and travel simply don't exist to you, understanding distance, time, cost... it's all things that don't apply to you.
Sure, in the truly homeless I can understand that, but much beyond that, it seems like a pure failing of their education - which you keep telling us is so horrible in Tx... damn.. just didn't seem to be possible to be as bad as you made it out to be, but then again, that's just a single example of non homeless people you've presented... can't be taken as anything close to the norm with just that one case.
Well I know of a teacher in TX that just learned last night that there is a bathroom thing going on in the US.
When I first read this post I had no idea what you were talking about. Frankly, if not for ML, I'd be nearly clueless about world politics - I just don't care about it. I don't listen to the radio, read the paper or listen to TV news, so to that end, I'm almost completely disconnected. Not to mention that personally - I'm sick of hearing about this specific type of story.
-
It is easy to blame Texas for these things, and their culture of anti-education (they have education shaming as a regular thing) and their insular nature combined with the massive physical size and most of the state being empty and ignored (literally, it's just empty) causes people to often have no idea what is outside of TX or where things are. But everywhere as similar issues, for the most part. People who don't travel rarely have a scope of distance, culture and other artefacts. That people in NY have any of the effect that we see in TX while being in a small state with other major states never over two hours away, and has multiple international borders and all of the biggest border cities is just as bad. There is zero excuse for it in NY, yet it was at least half as common as in Texas.
-
I'm betting outside the few major metros in the fly over states all have the same problem.
How do we compare to Europe, and small towns there?
-
@Dashrender said in Hours I work/PTO:
I'm betting outside the few major metros in the fly over states all have the same problem.
How do we compare to Europe, and small towns there?
As far as geographic education? I think it is better here for a lot of semi-obvious reasons (at least if you have had the chance to see the area.)
Some of the totally benign reasons that Europe sees the world differently geographically:
- Their borders have changed a lot more and aren't these permanent, eternal state borders like in the US.
- Their countries are small and nearly anyone could drive to numerous foreign countries with minimal effort.
- Other countries tend to be extremely different from their own; language, culture, history, food and even religion can differ over just a few miles.
- Even inside most countries there are a variety of languages, even official ones. Spain, for example, has five or six official languages! Romania has three and several others that are common.
- Distance to totally separate regions is easy. All of Europe can get to Africa easier than most of the US can get to Mexico. Asia is only nominally farther away.
- European possessions all over the world are typically full fledged European communities so people tend to travel to and from, more.
- Migratory work is more common. Our neighbour here is off in Germany for two months raspberry picking. They will go to Italy in a different season for some other work.
- Travel is cheaper and easier. Driving is about the same. But there are simple and cheap trains and planes to just everywhere. Plus ferries. The ubiquitous public transport mechanisms make getting to another country so easy.
- Youth travel is promoted and cheap. So even relatively poor Europeans can travel extensively.
- General safety makes travel much more viable.
-
Oh, and of course, in the US we have to learn about "history over there" and "US history" as if they are unrelated subjects. In Europe, all of that "Ancient Greece" and Rome and Byzantium and the Mongols, and the World Wars and all of those things are... local. That's their history. So the interest in and study of their own location is much more common.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
I've had affluent, well educated New Yorkers who think that Canada is a state or that the northern US border, just two counties away from them, was France. That the average person has little to no grasp of geography should not be a surprise.
I haven't been to the north East, but I've been to the south East. I live in southern Idaho. If you're not aware, the KKK used to have a huge compound in northern Idaho (about 8 hours away). Our state is famous for potatoes... but also tech. Micron is about 5 miles from my house and they're worth a bit of money. We also have an Oracle building and some other tech companies.
Everyone I met in Florida: "Where are you from?"
Me: "Idaho."
FL: "Iowa? That's cool."
Me: "No, Idaho."
FL: "Oooooh.... OHIO... Got it."
Me: "No! Idaho! The state between Montana and Washington."
FL: "The one with the KKK? Are you all racist then?"
Me: "That was a small radical group in the north... like 20 years ago. No, all of Idaho doesn't share that same view."
FL: "So you're probably a potato farmer then, runs in the family? Idaho Famous Potatoes?"
Me: "We have good potatoes, but we aren't all stupid racist potato farmers. The hell is the matter with you people?"
I was talking to like 6 people in a group (sober), and this was a round robin of questions like this. They were completely serious.
-
@BBigford said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
I've had affluent, well educated New Yorkers who think that Canada is a state or that the northern US border, just two counties away from them, was France. That the average person has little to no grasp of geography should not be a surprise.
I haven't been to the north East, but I've been to the south East. I live in southern Idaho. If you're not aware, the KKK used to have a huge compound in northern Idaho (about 8 hours away). Our state is famous for potatoes... but also tech. Micron is about 5 miles from my house and they're worth a bit of money. We also have an Oracle building and some other tech companies.
Everyone I met in Florida: "Where are you from?"
Me: "Idaho."
FL: "Iowa? That's cool."
Me: "No, Idaho."
FL: "Oooooh.... OHIO... Got it."
Me: "No! Idaho! The state between Montana and Washington."
FL: "The one with the KKK? Are you all racist then?"
Me: "That was a small radical group in the north... like 20 years ago. No, all of Idaho doesn't share that same view."
FL: "So you're probably a potato farmer then, runs in the family? Idaho Famous Potatoes?"
Me: "We have good potatoes, but we aren't all stupid racist potato farmers. The hell is the matter with you people?"
I was talking to like 6 people in a group (sober), and this was a round robin of questions like this. They were completely serious.
I remember meeting highly accelerated students from all over the country in DC when I was a senior. One of the things that the program had to explain to everyone that wasn't from NY, and I remember specifically that the group from NC had issues with this, was that NY was mostly rural and only rural NY was represented and that NYC was not a city that covered the entirety of teh state.
And yet, even after that, people were confused. Isn't all of NY a city?
Seriously? It would have to be a city of several billion people. You could fit the entire planet into a city that size.
The degree to which this was obviously impossible had no effect. Their upbringing left them convinced that "rural" in NY meant the Bronx or something.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@BBigford said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
I've had affluent, well educated New Yorkers who think that Canada is a state or that the northern US border, just two counties away from them, was France. That the average person has little to no grasp of geography should not be a surprise.
I haven't been to the north East, but I've been to the south East. I live in southern Idaho. If you're not aware, the KKK used to have a huge compound in northern Idaho (about 8 hours away). Our state is famous for potatoes... but also tech. Micron is about 5 miles from my house and they're worth a bit of money. We also have an Oracle building and some other tech companies.
Everyone I met in Florida: "Where are you from?"
Me: "Idaho."
FL: "Iowa? That's cool."
Me: "No, Idaho."
FL: "Oooooh.... OHIO... Got it."
Me: "No! Idaho! The state between Montana and Washington."
FL: "The one with the KKK? Are you all racist then?"
Me: "That was a small radical group in the north... like 20 years ago. No, all of Idaho doesn't share that same view."
FL: "So you're probably a potato farmer then, runs in the family? Idaho Famous Potatoes?"
Me: "We have good potatoes, but we aren't all stupid racist potato farmers. The hell is the matter with you people?"
I was talking to like 6 people in a group (sober), and this was a round robin of questions like this. They were completely serious.
I remember meeting highly accelerated students from all over the country in DC when I was a senior. One of the things that the program had to explain to everyone that wasn't from NY, and I remember specifically that the group from NC had issues with this, was that NY was mostly rural and only rural NY was represented and that NYC was not a city that covered the entirety of teh state.
And yet, even after that, people were confused. Isn't all of NY a city?
Seriously? It would have to be a city of several billion people. You could fit the entire planet into a city that size.
The degree to which this was obviously impossible had no effect. Their upbringing left them convinced that "rural" in NY meant the Bronx or something.
As if all of Washington is Seattle.... Nice.
Get over North Bend and it's farm land for millions of square miles.
-
@BBigford said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@BBigford said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
I've had affluent, well educated New Yorkers who think that Canada is a state or that the northern US border, just two counties away from them, was France. That the average person has little to no grasp of geography should not be a surprise.
I haven't been to the north East, but I've been to the south East. I live in southern Idaho. If you're not aware, the KKK used to have a huge compound in northern Idaho (about 8 hours away). Our state is famous for potatoes... but also tech. Micron is about 5 miles from my house and they're worth a bit of money. We also have an Oracle building and some other tech companies.
Everyone I met in Florida: "Where are you from?"
Me: "Idaho."
FL: "Iowa? That's cool."
Me: "No, Idaho."
FL: "Oooooh.... OHIO... Got it."
Me: "No! Idaho! The state between Montana and Washington."
FL: "The one with the KKK? Are you all racist then?"
Me: "That was a small radical group in the north... like 20 years ago. No, all of Idaho doesn't share that same view."
FL: "So you're probably a potato farmer then, runs in the family? Idaho Famous Potatoes?"
Me: "We have good potatoes, but we aren't all stupid racist potato farmers. The hell is the matter with you people?"
I was talking to like 6 people in a group (sober), and this was a round robin of questions like this. They were completely serious.
I remember meeting highly accelerated students from all over the country in DC when I was a senior. One of the things that the program had to explain to everyone that wasn't from NY, and I remember specifically that the group from NC had issues with this, was that NY was mostly rural and only rural NY was represented and that NYC was not a city that covered the entirety of teh state.
And yet, even after that, people were confused. Isn't all of NY a city?
Seriously? It would have to be a city of several billion people. You could fit the entire planet into a city that size.
The degree to which this was obviously impossible had no effect. Their upbringing left them convinced that "rural" in NY meant the Bronx or something.
As if all of Washington is Seattle.... Nice.
Get over North Bend and it's farm land for millions of square miles.
...and not good looking farm lands. It's all the scab lands from the (very very old) Montana lake that covered about half the state, blocked by a glacier, and rushed across the state in no time. Taking all the top soil into, now very fertile, Oregon. You can see the scars on a topo map, it's crazy the damage it did. Western Washington is horribly ugly because of it. It's just boulders, brush, and gravel pits. /digress
-
@BBigford said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
@BBigford said in Hours I work/PTO:
@scottalanmiller said in Hours I work/PTO:
I've had affluent, well educated New Yorkers who think that Canada is a state or that the northern US border, just two counties away from them, was France. That the average person has little to no grasp of geography should not be a surprise.
I haven't been to the north East, but I've been to the south East. I live in southern Idaho. If you're not aware, the KKK used to have a huge compound in northern Idaho (about 8 hours away). Our state is famous for potatoes... but also tech. Micron is about 5 miles from my house and they're worth a bit of money. We also have an Oracle building and some other tech companies.
Everyone I met in Florida: "Where are you from?"
Me: "Idaho."
FL: "Iowa? That's cool."
Me: "No, Idaho."
FL: "Oooooh.... OHIO... Got it."
Me: "No! Idaho! The state between Montana and Washington."
FL: "The one with the KKK? Are you all racist then?"
Me: "That was a small radical group in the north... like 20 years ago. No, all of Idaho doesn't share that same view."
FL: "So you're probably a potato farmer then, runs in the family? Idaho Famous Potatoes?"
Me: "We have good potatoes, but we aren't all stupid racist potato farmers. The hell is the matter with you people?"
I was talking to like 6 people in a group (sober), and this was a round robin of questions like this. They were completely serious.
I remember meeting highly accelerated students from all over the country in DC when I was a senior. One of the things that the program had to explain to everyone that wasn't from NY, and I remember specifically that the group from NC had issues with this, was that NY was mostly rural and only rural NY was represented and that NYC was not a city that covered the entirety of teh state.
And yet, even after that, people were confused. Isn't all of NY a city?
Seriously? It would have to be a city of several billion people. You could fit the entire planet into a city that size.
The degree to which this was obviously impossible had no effect. Their upbringing left them convinced that "rural" in NY meant the Bronx or something.
As if all of Washington is Seattle.... Nice.
Get over North Bend and it's farm land for millions of square miles.
Yeah, much like that.
