WGET where do you get your URLs from?
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Months ago there was a discussion on how crazy it is that Windows basically requires that you run around randomly on the internet going to websites downloading and installing software that you want, in comparison on Linux most can get away with just using the built-in package manager to download/install software.
So a couple of questions.
how do you know what package you want/need to install?
what about software that's not in the repos?As an end user if I want to read a PDF, I might have no clue that Adobe has a program called Acrobat Reader, or Foxit has Foxit Reader, etc. How I am suppose to know what software to install?
If you tell me that I need to do a Google search, how is that any better on Linux than Windows. Of course if the search tells you to pull something from the built-in repos.. ok you get a bit more safety, as you assume those to be good safe sources to install from, but if you have to attach a different repo, or download the installer from another site, how is this any better than Windows?
But the root question is still - how is someone suppose to know what they need? I want to download a html page in a CLI - what do I use? I'm sure I'm over complicating it, trying to bring a bias into conversation, having an emotion with a belief that Linux admins are claiming they are better than Windows admins because they already know. I'm trying to set this bias aside, and hence I'm asking the question - is the expectation that everyone does the same thing? If you don't know, you do Google searches or other research?
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As an end user if I want to read a PDF, I might have no clue that Adobe has a program called Acrobat Reader, or Foxit has Foxit Reader, etc. How I am suppose to know what software to install?
You go to the software store and type PDF, it will give you all of the applications regarding PDF in the repos for your distribution.
But the root question is still - how is someone suppose to know what they need? I want to download a html page in a CLI - what do I use?
I don't understand this part. You're going from someone who doesn't know what a PDF reader is to downloading an html file from the cli.
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"My" Windows machines generally work, they only break because of specific apps fall over. Skype by Microsoft, Outlook, these are the only things that really fall over. - Now, I don't have a load of protections in place to stop me tooling the OS, I don't download all kinds of junk software in my hunt for a PDF converter. But then again...I am not 90% of end users. (lies and statistics)
Linux gives a lot of protection by default, so for a lot of "end users" it will run better, more stable and be more effective. Windows is nowhere near there yet.
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For any extra software you search the software store, but remember after downloading and installing a Linux distribution you get a full working pc. You get a default web browser, office suite, pdf reader, video player, audio player, image viewer and also usually almost all codecs needed. For the end user they basically have all they need to get working and browsing the Web.
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@Breffni-Potter said:
"My" Windows machines generally work, they only break because of specific apps fall over. Skype by Microsoft, Outlook, these are the only things that really fall over. - Now, I don't have a load of protections in place to stop me tooling the OS, I don't download all kinds of junk software in my hunt for a PDF converter. But then again...I am not 90% of end users. (lies and statistics)
Linux gives a lot of protection by default, so for a lot of "end users" it will run better, more stable and be more effective. Windows is nowhere near there yet.
@Breffni-Potter said:
"My" Windows machines generally work, they only break because of specific apps fall over. Skype by Microsoft, Outlook, these are the only things that really fall over. - Now, I don't have a load of protections in place to stop me tooling the OS, I don't download all kinds of junk software in my hunt for a PDF converter. But then again...I am not 90% of end users. (lies and statistics)
Linux gives a lot of protection by default, so for a lot of "end users" it will run better, more stable and be more effective. Windows is nowhere near there yet.
I have no idea what you're talking about? Windows machines, that are locked down by IT, ie, users not installing crap, really don't give any any problems. You mentioned Outlook having problems, well any software can break - and email clients are something I've had issues with no matter who provided the software. While those issues have been mostly on Windows, but definitely not limited to - i've seen it Android, Mac and iPhones too. email clients are just notoriously subject to breakage.
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@Dashrender said:
I have no idea what you're talking about? Windows machines, that are locked down by IT, ie, users not installing crap, really don't give any any problems.
But Windows has to be guarded by IT, it is not designed to be safe, that's why.
Setup 2 identical hardware systems, one with Windows 10, one with Linux and give them to the same user. They will break Windows 10 quicker than they will break Linux, no IT hand-holding or management.
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@Breffni-Potter said:
@Dashrender said:
I have no idea what you're talking about? Windows machines, that are locked down by IT, ie, users not installing crap, really don't give any any problems.
But Windows has to be guarded by IT, it is not designed to be safe, that's why.
Setup 2 identical hardware systems, one with Windows 10, one with Linux and give them to the same user. They will break Windows 10 quicker than they will break Linux, no IT hand-holding or management.
hmm... Sadly since Windows 10 doesn't by default make the user create a non admin account to use day to day. You move beyond that then I'd say they would both suffer equally.
But that requirement of having a non admin account would drive many normal users away from using Linux because they simply don't understand the security or be willing to deal with the inconvenience of the two usernames, etc.
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@Dashrender said:
As an end user if I want to read a PDF, I might have no clue that Adobe has a program called Acrobat Reader, or Foxit has Foxit Reader, etc. How I am suppose to know what software to install?
Well, it is there by default in any desktop distro. So you don't even have to think about stuff that basic in the least (again, an entire order easier than Windows....)
But let's assume you deleted it and wanted one. Just open up the software manager and look for PDF.
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@Dashrender said:
what about software that's not in the repos?
Then you "fall back" in the most extreme case to the Windows way. Remember, Linux does everything Windows does, plus more. You can always do things the "Windows way" if you feel the need or are really stuck.
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@Dashrender said:
If you tell me that I need to do a Google search, how is that any better on Linux than Windows.
- You don't, so this doesn't apply BUT....
- Because you have a verified source that is handled for you. Do a Google search for Windows and you are still stuck guessing. Do a Google search for things in the repos, and you know for sure.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
As an end user if I want to read a PDF, I might have no clue that Adobe has a program called Acrobat Reader, or Foxit has Foxit Reader, etc. How I am suppose to know what software to install?
Well, it is there by default in any desktop distro. So you don't even have to think about stuff that basic in the least (again, an entire order easier than Windows....)
Not anymore, Windows 8 and newer all included one.
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@Dashrender said:
But the root question is still - how is someone suppose to know what they need?
- It's likely already installed.
- If it isn't it is almost certainly in the repos.
- In the extreme case that you need something specific and don't know what it is, you might have to fall back to the "always" situation on Windows.
Never harder, once in a while it might be "as hard" but never harder.
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@Dashrender said:
I have no idea what you're talking about? Windows machines, that are locked down by IT, ie, users not installing crap, really don't give any any problems.
That's a pretty big expense to try to mimic Linux out of the box.
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@Dashrender said:
But that requirement of having a non admin account would drive many normal users away from using Linux because they simply don't understand the security or be willing to deal with the inconvenience of the two usernames, etc.
But driving them away isn't a factor here. Yes, it's sad that most end users will choose hard and insecure and well marketed over secure and easy to use. But that's just how they are. Doesn't in any way influence that Linux has an advantage in this arena, though.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
As an end user if I want to read a PDF, I might have no clue that Adobe has a program called Acrobat Reader, or Foxit has Foxit Reader, etc. How I am suppose to know what software to install?
Well, it is there by default in any desktop distro. So you don't even have to think about stuff that basic in the least (again, an entire order easier than Windows....)
Not anymore, Windows 8 and newer all included one.
But you had to wait a full decade to catch up.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
I have no idea what you're talking about? Windows machines, that are locked down by IT, ie, users not installing crap, really don't give any any problems.
That's a pretty big expense to try to mimic Linux out of the box.
No argument there - Hell even Macs make you do this. I consider this a pretty big blunder on MS's part.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
As an end user if I want to read a PDF, I might have no clue that Adobe has a program called Acrobat Reader, or Foxit has Foxit Reader, etc. How I am suppose to know what software to install?
Well, it is there by default in any desktop distro. So you don't even have to think about stuff that basic in the least (again, an entire order easier than Windows....)
Not anymore, Windows 8 and newer all included one.
But you had to wait a full decade to catch up.
Considering Linux still isn't on the average desktop.. this is a rather meaningless statement - but your point is well taken.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
As an end user if I want to read a PDF, I might have no clue that Adobe has a program called Acrobat Reader, or Foxit has Foxit Reader, etc. How I am suppose to know what software to install?
Well, it is there by default in any desktop distro. So you don't even have to think about stuff that basic in the least (again, an entire order easier than Windows....)
Not anymore, Windows 8 and newer all included one.
But you had to wait a full decade to catch up.
Considering Linux still isn't on the average desktop.. this is a rather meaningless statement - but your point is well taken.
What does being on the "average" desktop mean? Linux IS on the average end user device. Does that mean that Windows desktop users don't matter?
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
As an end user if I want to read a PDF, I might have no clue that Adobe has a program called Acrobat Reader, or Foxit has Foxit Reader, etc. How I am suppose to know what software to install?
Well, it is there by default in any desktop distro. So you don't even have to think about stuff that basic in the least (again, an entire order easier than Windows....)
Not anymore, Windows 8 and newer all included one.
But you had to wait a full decade to catch up.
Considering Linux still isn't on the average desktop.. this is a rather meaningless statement - but your point is well taken.
What does being on the "average" desktop mean? Linux IS on the average end user device. Does that mean that Windows desktop users don't matter?
you changed it - I said desktop and you said averaged end user, those are not the same. Please keep apples with apples, and oranges with oranges
You're absolutely right that Linux rules the world, both in servers and end users devices (android phones anyone)... but Linux does not own the desktop at this point, so it's not really relevant to the conversation at this time.
Though MS I'm sure has been gun shy to include these types of services for fear of being called a monopoly like in the 90's.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
As an end user if I want to read a PDF, I might have no clue that Adobe has a program called Acrobat Reader, or Foxit has Foxit Reader, etc. How I am suppose to know what software to install?
Well, it is there by default in any desktop distro. So you don't even have to think about stuff that basic in the least (again, an entire order easier than Windows....)
Not anymore, Windows 8 and newer all included one.
But you had to wait a full decade to catch up.
Considering Linux still isn't on the average desktop.. this is a rather meaningless statement - but your point is well taken.
What does being on the "average" desktop mean? Linux IS on the average end user device. Does that mean that Windows desktop users don't matter?
you changed it - I said desktop and you said averaged end user, those are not the same. Please keep apples with apples, and oranges with oranges
I changed it to make a point. You acted like the fact that the average desktop user is on Windows that that makes Linux have the feature for a decade not important. So I was asking if, following the same logic, that the average end user isn't on Windows if it makes Windows on the desktop not matter either if the "average" of some other thing negates the of some other thing.
