What BASH and SSH Mean for Windows Systems Administration
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@tonyshowoff said:
Or to other people. "Healthcare is a privilege, not a right" I think is the ultimate extreme of this same sort of mindset. The common expression is "F you, I got mine," except it's usually "F you, I don't have it either, but you don't deserve it."
OK I'm slowly coming to agree with Scott (and perhaps others) on a national healthcare setup. To me it's not an F you, it's a look at the current situation - it's not a service provided by the government, it's provided privately - and privately you have no rights to goods or services at the expense of someone else. So if it's going to happen, it's got to go full blown Uncle Sam is covering it (yeah via taxes), but everyone is on the same playing field.
I have asked a lot of older Americans who talk about "working hard means you get more" that if they had worked harder, do they believe they would've been millionaires instead of struggling on social security or still working at 65 or whatever, believe it or not, many say "yes." It's really strange.
I'm not sure what the issue is here? Other than working harder - getting more education that enables you to changing careers into one that earns more - what other options do they have to have previously earned more? Would they be millionaires? probably not, but they don't need to be either to be much better off.
Yet, most Americans still feel they are "temporarily embarrassed millionaires"
Interesting - don't agree, but interesting.
However, if you were born a millionaire and inherited your money, most will probably praise you for working hard.
That might be true of the millionaires looking at millionaires - I certainly don't look at those who inherited money has having worked hard - hell, most of the time it's the exact opposite.
I am a millionaire and I hate every other millionaire I know, except one, he's an old friend.
What are you doing here then?
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@Dashrender said:
I'm not sure what the issue is here? Other than working harder - getting more education that enables you to changing careers into one that earns more - what other options do they have to have previously earned more? Would they be millionaires? probably not, but they don't need to be either to be much better off.
Degrees are known to hurt your chances, not increase them. Getting those low earners to go to college is actually part of the system keeping them poor!
mostly the rich get rich because of connections, being lucky or being really smart. Only the last of those is really a good thing.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@tonyshowoff said:
Or to other people. "Healthcare is a privilege, not a right" I think is the ultimate extreme of this same sort of mindset. The common expression is "F you, I got mine," except it's usually "F you, I don't have it either, but you don't deserve it."
Yes, there is a weird cultural thing where people feel that it might be unfair if someone else gets something that they might not deserve and being willing to not have it ourselves to keep others from getting it.
I'll agree that the
"F you, I don't have it either, but you don't deserve it."
mindset is out there, but I don't think it applies to healthcare by the masses. Tons of other things, sure, Lamborghini's etc. but not healthcare - I think most people would be happy to see everyone get care when they are sick.
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@Dashrender said:
Yet, most Americans still feel they are "temporarily embarrassed millionaires"
Interesting - don't agree, but interesting.
This is a widely stated thing. I've known about this as the "American problem" since the 80s when I was in middle school. Maybe it is wrong, but it is very widely excepted and fits the behaviour.
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@Dashrender said:
mindset is out there, but I don't think it applies to healthcare by the masses. Tons of other things, sure, Lamborghini's etc. but not healthcare - I think most people would be happy to see everyone get care when they are sick.
The voting says very, very much otherwise. Nearly everyone that I've seen state that they are not in favour of nationalised healthcare says it for this reason - they don't want to be paying for other people who get sick. I see constantly people saying that they don't think we should take care of the sick unless the sick are rich enough to cover it themselves.
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@Dashrender said:
That might be true of the millionaires looking at millionaires - I certainly don't look at those who inherited money has having worked hard - hell, most of the time it's the exact opposite.
Haven't you looked at the recent Trump populism? He is not a good businessman, he has never worked hard, he inherited his money from his father and squandered a significant amount if it. Yet people seem to equate wealth with intelligence.
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@coliver said:
@Dashrender said:
That might be true of the millionaires looking at millionaires - I certainly don't look at those who inherited money has having worked hard - hell, most of the time it's the exact opposite.
Haven't you looked at the recent Trump populism? He is not a good businessman, he has never worked hard, he inherited his money from his father and squandered a significant amount if it. Yet seem to equate wealth with intelligence.
And he is running on the campaign of hating your neighbours. Things like not wanting the poor to get healthcare.
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@scottalanmiller said:
I've seen studies on that. Something about how America is so sold as the land of opportunity and all of the media and this goes back a hundred years or more and how people are so completely sold the idea that they will eventually be super rich and because of that they will vote to empower the rich and oppress themselves not realizing that they are voting for and heavily supporting the barriers that keep them from getting rich themselves (or you know, just getting basic healthcare.)
LOL - this goes straight to the saying that Benjamin Franklin said “When the people find that they can vote themselves money that will herald the end of the republic.” . I have a hard time not looking at healthcare in this light. This is voting to take money away from other to give themselves something. Now, all of the other benefits that Scott's mentioned in the past are what are starting me make me move on this point.. but the rest is still true. If the voters realized that they could vote themselves lower taxes, or high wages through law - things are definitely in for a major change - sadly they just don't realize it.
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@Dashrender said:
LOL - this goes straight to the saying that Benjamin Franklin said “When the people find that they can vote themselves money that will herald the end of the republic.” .
Or my quote... this is exactly what a Republic implies.
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@Dashrender said:
OK I'm slowly coming to agree with Scott (and perhaps others) on a national healthcare setup. To me it's not an F you, it's a look at the current situation - it's not a service provided by the government, it's provided privately - and privately you have no rights to goods or services at the expense of someone else. So if it's going to happen, it's got to go full blown Uncle Sam is covering it (yeah via taxes), but everyone is on the same playing field.
The idea of "healthcare is a privilege, not a right" is not a way to discuss currently what exists, but to defend it, despite the fact it is not superior, and not only that the attitude is rather dark.
I'm not sure what the issue is here? Other than working harder - getting more education that enables you to changing careers into one that earns more - what other options do they have to have previously earned more? Would they be millionaires? probably not, but they don't need to be either to be much better off.
The issue is believing that you too can be a millionaire and all wealthy people lying to you, will make you more likely to accept poor pay and treatment, and that instead of improving the job (or jobs) you do have or can get, you hold out for that one day. It's not just "probably not", but "almost certainly not." Delusions don't help anyone.
Interesting - don't agree, but interesting.
I'm not sure how else to explain American attitudes toward capitalism then, essentially it's "everyone else has to pull up their bootstraps, but I am different because I work hard, and one day it'll pay off," but it won't.
That might be true of the millionaires looking at millionaires - I certainly don't look at those who inherited money has having worked hard - hell, most of the time it's the exact opposite.
Maybe not you, but a lot of people look at it that way, especially if they use that money to start a business. Starting a business with a lot of money is a lot easier than starting it from the absolute bottom.
What are you doing here then?
On Mangolassi or in Russia? The answer to both is "because I want to be."
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@Dashrender said:
If the voters realized that they could vote themselves lower taxes, or high wages through law - things are definitely in for a major change - sadly they just don't realize it.
Actually they do... try. When the poor and uneducated try to vote that way they get tricked and vote themselves less. Hatred breeds ignorance and ignorance will be manipulated.
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Someone recently posted on Facebook how much money it would cost me every week to fund Bernie's universal healthcare, universal education, higher wages, and such.
And my thought was.... damn, who total ass would not be willing to spend that little money to make life so much better for so many people.
And yet... most people feel that way.
And the post didn't mention how much less taxes were needed for the whole plan, it was a fake, inflated number to make it look bad and, in reality, it showed just how smart the plan is that even the fake inflated numbers can't make it look bad.
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@tonyshowoff said:
On Mangolassi or in Russia? The answer to both is "because I want to be."
Like me with ML and Romania.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
The thing about the US is not that employees don't have rights, they actually have a lot of rights and a lot of protections, but Americans all believe that somehow capitalism means no rights
Eh? People actually blame capitalism for them having no rights? I know I hang out with starter than average people, so perhaps I'm shielded from this belief - but damn!
Blame is a strong word. Most of them like it and try to act like it is a good thing. Because what I see is a strong love of anti-capitalism or fake capitalism like the healthcare stuff... there is no capitalism there, that's just corruption. But people love it, so they embrace it even though it hurts them.
Healthcare is anything but capitalism - and so are most businesses in the US today - croni-capitalism.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
Now I don't know anyone who doesn't believe they are due at least minimum wage.
Actually, minimum wage is a myth. Thanks to unions you can be forced to go below it!
Eh? how so? Looking to educate myself here.
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There is an interesting adage about Americans. I was told this by a European friend. It goes something like this:
In America if you offered a man a choice
A)You would give him $50,000 with the stipulation that all of his neighbors also got $50,000
or
B)You would give him $30,000 and his neighbors got nothing
He would most likely pick the because he earned it and he doesn't want to help any freeloaders.Not sure if it is true or not but it seems to be a running joke in Europe
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
The thing about the US is not that employees don't have rights, they actually have a lot of rights and a lot of protections, but Americans all believe that somehow capitalism means no rights
Eh? People actually blame capitalism for them having no rights? I know I hang out with starter than average people, so perhaps I'm shielded from this belief - but damn!
Blame is a strong word. Most of them like it and try to act like it is a good thing. Because what I see is a strong love of anti-capitalism or fake capitalism like the healthcare stuff... there is no capitalism there, that's just corruption. But people love it, so they embrace it even though it hurts them.
Healthcare is anything but capitalism - and so are most businesses in the US today - croni-capitalism.
I see libertarians and certain Republicans make the distinction, as if there is a difference. Exactly how do we avoid croni-capitalism? It reminds me of the arguments of "returning to the constitution", as if that exact same constitution wasn't the one which allowed all of this to happen in the first place. Capitalism encourages selfishness and encourages hording of property (assets, money, et al), therefore it will always have some corruption, even if you say "well we just need to get rid of croni-capitalism," that's like saying "we can have fire without heat."
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
I'm not sure what the issue is here? Other than working harder - getting more education that enables you to changing careers into one that earns more - what other options do they have to have previously earned more? Would they be millionaires? probably not, but they don't need to be either to be much better off.
Degrees are known to hurt your chances, not increase them. Getting those low earners to go to college is actually part of the system keeping them poor!
mostly the rich get rich because of connections, being lucky or being really smart. Only the last of those is really a good thing.
I didn't say degrees, I said education - most likely self taught or intern type stuff if what I was going for. You flip burgers for a living today - get a book, learn how to support computers, change careers and change your earning potential. Or learn how to take care of lawns, etc and go work for a high end golf course - do something. Don't just sit there and say the man is keeping you down.
This is tantamount to you working the hotel at night to learn those skills.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Someone recently posted on Facebook how much money it would cost me every week to fund Bernie's universal healthcare, universal education, higher wages, and such.
And my thought was.... damn, who total ass would not be willing to spend that little money to make life so much better for so many people.
And yet... most people feel that way.
And the post didn't mention how much less taxes were needed for the whole plan, it was a fake, inflated number to make it look bad and, in reality, it showed just how smart the plan is that even the fake inflated numbers can't make it look bad.
I am amazed at how little those social services would cost. Even if they are on the low-end of estimation it would be a massive benefit for the small increase in taxes. Especially after what we learned from things like the Panama papers.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
Now I don't know anyone who doesn't believe they are due at least minimum wage.
Actually, minimum wage is a myth. Thanks to unions you can be forced to go below it!
Eh? how so? Looking to educate myself here.
A union can negotiate the workers down to minimum wage on paper. Then can, through special union laws, force the workers to pay to work. And the union can take that fee out of their paycheck, literally lowering their pay rate. The union can be owned or controlled by the business in order to ensure that there is no voting or ability to stop the union.
Welcome to what the poor vote for in America. Unions are a very simple means of tricking the poor into lowering their value and making them thankful that it happened to them. It's like the lotto, it's a tax on the poor.
