What BASH and SSH Mean for Windows Systems Administration
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@scottalanmiller said:
Vibrant meaning getting to do awesome IT work, being taken seriously, making respectable money, continuously being able to move forward in your career, getting creative and business challenges.... all the things people understand with a vibrant career in any field.
What percentage of the population are we talking about that have these vibrant careers? 1%, maybe 10% at most? These things sound more like the 1%'ers of wealthy people. Sure they exist, and you can certainly try to be one of them, but it's really more like winning life's lottery to be one of them.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Then look at people who are willing to relocate. Regularly earning 200 - 300% of the SW "caps", excited about their jobs, respected at work, spend their time doing IT not fighting to be allowed to work, etc.
Relocation is certainly not the only factor. But in looking at many thousands of IT people, the relocation factor is often staggeringly tied to how much people get stuck in one category or get to move into the other.
And how many are held back more by their spouse's or children's desires to not move? IF, IF a career came along that offered me 2-3 times my current pay, Maybe, Just maybe she's be willing to relocate, but she definitely wouldn't be happy about it. The bulk of people I see moving are moving only for HUGE jumps in pay as you mention, and that's iffy if there is family involved, and if there is family - well if they are jobless, they are much more likely to move regardless of family simply because they want a job/want to work.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
How many wage earning, non-managerial, IT people earn over $150k, either in London, NY, or anywhere?
More than you think. I know places paying $175K that can't get people in at all anymore because they are so far below market.
System Admin in San Fran is a $200K job and people who have worked for me have hit $300K there. NYC, $200K isn't uncommon. Chicago I've interviewed many places for $300K, and that's a cheap market. Rural Switzerland and London I've interviewed in the $300K range.
What kind of work are you doing for that? writing bash scripts all day? etc?
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My wife and I made a decision when we first got serious and were talking about marriage that her career would come first. I always figured that I could get a job anywhere.
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@scottalanmiller out of interest, how do you know how much all these people earn? I know how much my staff earn and how much by best friend earns (but only because he happened to tell me last week), but other than I don't know how much ANYONE earns. I don't know how much my brothers earn, I've never known how much my parents earned, I don't know how much any of my colleagues earn, I don't know how much any of my friend earn. Yet you know the salaries of over 500 system admins in London alone! Do you ask them? Is this an American thing? It's weird to me that you know, because in the UK, at least, discussing salaries is a massive taboo. It's a big story at the moment because some of our politicians have started publishing their tax returns for the first time ever, but generally salaries are top secret.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@scottalanmiller out of interest, how do you know how much all these people earn? I know how much my staff earn and how much by best friend earns (but only because he happened to tell me last week), but other than I don't know how much ANYONE earns. I don't know how much my brothers earn, I've never known how much my parents earned, I don't know how much any of my colleagues earn, I don't know how much any of my friend earn. Yet you know the salaries of over 500 system admins in London alone! Do you ask them? Is this an American thing? It's weird to me that you know, because in the UK, at least, discussing salaries is a massive taboo. It's a big story at the moment because some of our politicians have started publishing their tax returns for the first time ever, but generally salaries are top secret.
It's a massive taboo with Americans as well, but you can get statical information, as well as some people do tell you, and you can infer based on those what other people likely make. And when it comes to people like me, a business owner, I can tell you what my employees make on average, and also business associates as well since we do discuss that.
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@Dashrender said:
Sure they exist, and you can certainly try to be one of them, but it's really more like winning life's lottery to be one of them.
If "being willing to move" is like "winning the lottery"
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
How many wage earning, non-managerial, IT people earn over $150k, either in London, NY, or anywhere?
More than you think. I know places paying $175K that can't get people in at all anymore because they are so far below market.
System Admin in San Fran is a $200K job and people who have worked for me have hit $300K there. NYC, $200K isn't uncommon. Chicago I've interviewed many places for $300K, and that's a cheap market. Rural Switzerland and London I've interviewed in the $300K range.
What kind of work are you doing for that? writing bash scripts all day? etc?
If you are a traditional system admin, then two things I've seen heavily...
- Troubleshooting the big problems while other people handle the day to day stuff
- And yes, scripting everything and anything to keep efficiency high
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@scottalanmiller out of interest, how do you know how much all these people earn? I know how much my staff earn and how much by best friend earns (but only because he happened to tell me last week), but other than I don't know how much ANYONE earns.
Been a hiring manager, department manager and worked at companies with very public pay scales and some assumption that people over me made at least as much as I did (which is pretty safe that my manager who hires me is at my pay scale) and a few places have had public pay scales.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
I don't know how much my brothers earn, I've never known how much my parents earned, I don't know how much any of my colleagues earn, I don't know how much any of my friend earn.
I know the salaries of nearly all of my friends. It's a very American thing. Not that we sit around discussing it, but many of them got jobs through me (not IT, ones in operations, sales, etc.) and many I've known since they started their careers and everyone in the US talks about pay and salary.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
I don't know how much my brothers earn, I've never known how much my parents earned, I don't know how much any of my colleagues earn, I don't know how much any of my friend earn.
I know the salaries of nearly all of my friends. It's a very American thing. Not that we sit around discussing it, but many of them got jobs through me (not IT, ones in operations, sales, etc.) and many I've known since they started their careers and everyone in the US talks about pay and salary.
Really? Jeeze, it was almost impossible for fellow AOL employees to tell me what they made, it was strange to me, and I had the same issue at a few other companies I worked for. Maybe that's a thing with older people, and not with younger people. I noticed that is true with voting in America, older people are less likely to tell you who they voted for, as if it's a birthday wish I guess.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
It's weird to me that you know, because in the UK, at least, discussing salaries is a massive taboo. It's a big story at the moment because some of our politicians have started publishing their tax returns for the first time ever, but generally salaries are top secret.
This is one thing that I think American culture does right. The American obsession with jobs and salary is bad, but people knowing what can be earned is good. Go on Spiceworks and you'll find that when people don't know what everyone is earning, companies use that lack of knowledge to literally cut salaries in half and people think that it is fine.
I've always wondered how do people, like in the UK, figure out what they should be paid? There are no websites with reliable information. Glassdoor skews very low, for example.
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@tonyshowoff said:
It's a massive taboo with Americans as well, but you can get statical information, as well as some people do tell you, and you can infer based on those what other people likely make. And when it comes to people like me, a business owner, I can tell you what my employees make on average, and also business associates as well since we do discuss that.
I've not found that to be taboo once you get into the non-management six figure ranks. We all talk. And not just Americans but people I've worked with in Canada share that, too, and their culture skews far more to European sensibilities.
All of my friends who make really high salaries, we compare because it gives us leverage and knowledge. Companies don't want us talking salaries, but employees should be doing it, it is information that we need.
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@tonyshowoff said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
I don't know how much my brothers earn, I've never known how much my parents earned, I don't know how much any of my colleagues earn, I don't know how much any of my friend earn.
I know the salaries of nearly all of my friends. It's a very American thing. Not that we sit around discussing it, but many of them got jobs through me (not IT, ones in operations, sales, etc.) and many I've known since they started their careers and everyone in the US talks about pay and salary.
Really? Jeeze, it was almost impossible for fellow AOL employees to tell me what they made, it was strange to me, and I had the same issue at a few other companies I worked for. Maybe that's a thing with older people, and not with younger people. I noticed that is true with voting in America, older people are less likely to tell you who they voted for, as if it's a birthday wish I guess.
Yes, I don't think that my parents shared salary info with their friends. They also didn't live in a world of changing jobs and where both of my parents worked the pay scales were public. So even though my dad didn't know that the guy in the office next to his made $75,430 a year, he knew from his title that he made between $75K and $80K. So, in a way, the old way was more public, but people didn't disclose the information personally.
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I've worked at several companies where it's against company policy to discuss salary with other employees.
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@Dashrender said:
I've worked at several companies where it's against company policy to discuss salary with other employees.
Pretty sure that's actually illegal. They can make sure that you are not to discuss it while on the clock. But stopping you from disclosing information about yourself violations your free speech and blatantly so.
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Imagine if you weren't allowed to give out your name or address, if it wasn't other employees.
What if your policy at work said that you could not tell your salary to the IRS? Makes it really obvious that that clause isn't valid, right? Businesses can't determine what you can say about yourself. They CAN block you from telling what they pay, they CAN'T block you from telling what you receive.
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One of the few things that I like about unions is that unions take salary information and make it very, very public. You might not know exactly what everyone gets, but you know very close. Unfortunately, it also makes that information useless, which is where unions are bad.
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@Dashrender said:
I've worked at several companies where it's against company policy to discuss salary with other employees.
This is how you know that they are scared that people will find out how badly they pay. It's a means of depressing wages.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
I've worked at several companies where it's against company policy to discuss salary with other employees.
Pretty sure that's actually illegal. They can make sure that you are not to discuss it while on the clock. But stopping you from disclosing information about yourself violations your free speech and blatantly so.
Yes, it is absolutely illegal in the US, though a lot of employees don't know this, and it is unofficial policy at a lot of companies. People are often told not to, and it's usually implied that it's because they make more, even though it's probably because they make less.
