Web Application VS Windows Application
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One of his key issues is that ORMs are difficult to test. Are you doing test driven development? What kind of testing are you doing?
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Did anyone notice that the complaint at the end wasn't that ORM was bad but that he didn't like Hibernate and his solution was to.... make a new ORM that he shows how to implement?
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no, i posted this morning on spicework hoping i found someone tried a good ORM and advice me how to efficiently use it without having my first issue of performance, then one guy tell me this,
this is my post : https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/1475172-php-best-orm?page=1#entry-5568544
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@IT-ADMIN said:
no, i posted this morning on spicework hoping i found someone tried a good ORM and advice me how to efficiently use it without having my first issue of performance, then one guy tell me this,
That's not a development forum, why would you want to get advice there?
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I'm not sure about many of the ORMs out there for PHP, but RedBean is the first one I've found, and for my apps, it has been very performant and does not cause speed problems.
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they have a php section, therefor i posted in it
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His points are not completely wrong, but they are, I feel, mostly silly. He relies on assumptions that are not true to make his point. Like ORM breaks the object model, this is simply wrong and false. He might be correct about hibernate, but not about ORM as a concept. He says that it is slow, so are lots of good things, slow is often a sign that we are doing things correct. If slow is the concern, relational databases are slow. Are we abandoning them? He complains that ORM are hard to test. Not sure if he is correct there, but this point is only non-moot if we are testing, are we?
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@IT-ADMIN said:
they have a php section, therefor i posted in it
They have a section for anything that can get advertising. It's an SMB IT forum, not a development forum, that's all that there is to it.
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ok dear scott, thank you for your advice, i'm sorry if i upset you and waste your time
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@IT-ADMIN said:
ok dear scott, thank you for your advice, i'm sorry if i upset you and waste your time
It feels like you are going in circles. You really want to do old development using tools and techniques that you are used to. I understand that. And there is value to that. But there are also modern tools and techniques that make things much easier for development that you can leverage. I think that you need to decide on your goals and needs before looking for details like this.
We don't even know what technologies make sense for your project. Right now you are shopping for an ORM before even knowing if your data is relational. The cart is before the horse.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@IT-ADMIN said:
ok dear scott, thank you for your advice, i'm sorry if i upset you and waste your time
It feels like you are going in circles. You really want to do old development using tools and techniques that you are used to. I understand that. And there is value to that. But there are also modern tools and techniques that make things much easier for development that you can leverage. I think that you need to decide on your goals and needs before looking for details like this.
We don't even know what technologies make sense for your project. Right now you are shopping for an ORM before even knowing if your data is relational. The cart is before the horse.
No, we already finished our conceptual model of data, and we already knew the schema of our DB and we get the tables and the relations btw them all,
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my collegue want to use the traditional method of creating tables manually and doing everything manual, till now i try to convince him to use modern technologies, i even showed him this forum and your replies about the advantages of using modern technologies, he told me these guys have more experience, but we in our situation we are considered beginners and we should know all details of our projects in order to learn and understand staff in details
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@IT-ADMIN said:
No, we already finished our conceptual model of data, and we already knew the schema of our DB and we get the tables and the relations btw them all,
This is the problem. While I often like to do data-driven development, you are making system design decisions based on assumptions. Why was the data modeled at all? How did you decide that it should be relational and why did you design something that the ORM would do?
I'm not saying that the design is wrong, but you have made your decisions already. It's, more or less, too late to be asking the questions now.
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@IT-ADMIN said:
my collegue want to use the traditional method of creating tables manually and doing everything manual, till now i try to convince him to use modern technologies, i even showed him this forum and your replies about the advantages of using modern technologies, he told me these guys have more experience, but we in our situation we are considered beginners and we should know all details of our projects in order to learn and understand staff in details
It seems to me that you have a good understanding of the data that will go into your system, if you already know how the database will be structured and all that. What your colleague is wanting to do is spend time writing and debugging code that handles the CRUD (create,read,update,delete) functions.
My question for him, is "Why would you want to re-invent the wheel?"
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now i only need to learn well about one good ORM in order to be able to convince him, currently i'm studying doctrine2 and laravel, if i understand them well and after testing them in my test project, that time i can demonstrate to him how to use it and the benefits we can get behind using it,
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@IT-ADMIN said:
my collegue want to use the traditional method of creating tables manually and doing everything manual, till now i try to convince him to use modern technologies, i even showed him this forum and your replies about the advantages of using modern technologies, he told me these guys have more experience, but we in our situation we are considered beginners and we should know all details of our projects in order to learn and understand staff in details
That's exactly what so many newbies say.... "Well, these people have experience and know what we need, but we'll do something else because we are sure that the fact that we don't know means that we know better than those that do know."
It's insane. It's the same logic that people going to college often use - instead of getting advice from people successful in their field, they go to people who can't work in that field or have failed at it and get advice from them because it is often "feel good" advice instead of useful advice. It makes no sense.
Our advice is based on the level of knowledge and experience that you have. His logic indicates that he should not be allowed to be in a role of decision making at all, it's a horribly dangerous thought process. He knows when good advice has been given and intentionally does something bad just to fail.
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@dafyre said:
@IT-ADMIN said:
my collegue want to use the traditional method of creating tables manually and doing everything manual, till now i try to convince him to use modern technologies, i even showed him this forum and your replies about the advantages of using modern technologies, he told me these guys have more experience, but we in our situation we are considered beginners and we should know all details of our projects in order to learn and understand staff in details
It seems to me that you have a good understanding of the data that will go into your system, if you already know how the database will be structured and all that. What your colleague is wanting to do is spend time writing and debugging code that handles the CRUD (create,read,update,delete) functions.
My question for him, is "Why would you want to re-invent the wheel?"
Apparently, for it's own sake.
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@IT-ADMIN said:
now i only need to learn well about one good ORM in order to be able to convince him, currently i'm studying doctrine2 and laravel, if i understand them well and after testing them in my test project, that time i can demonstrate to him how to use it and the benefits we can get behind using it,
No, you should NOT need to find a good ORM. That's what we are saying.
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What you need to do is...
- Figure out if you need relational data at all. We aren't even up to the point of talking frameworks yet.
- Only look for frameworks, talking ORM means you've already missed the modern development boat, here.
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our first model is the following, after that we gonna add more entity by the time
by the way it is only the payroll model of our application
