What is the Upside to VMware to the SMB?
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Personally, I think the cost of VMware is trivial. It would be a factor in my choice of hypervisor, but a very minor one. I'm more likely to look at different products and simply decide which I like best.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
Personally, I think the cost of VMware is trivial.
We all do, but why spend any money to "get less" is the question. Even assuming VMware were actually free for Essentials, why deploy it?
But there is a hidden cost that needs to be considered too: the licensing. You have to track it, apply it, risk outages from it, deal with their convoluted website for updates, changes, etc. Huge? No. But the licensing alone can take more time and effort to administer than a competitor's entire product.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
It would be a factor in my choice of hypervisor, but a very minor one. I'm more likely to look at different products and simply decide which I like best.
If all it meant was "spend $500" vs. "not spend $500", larger shops could effectively ignore the cost. I totally agree. It's trivial compared to the effort involved and other considerations.
But the $500 version of ESXi is still heavily crippled. It doesn't have failover, HA, vmotion, storage vmotion, backups, can't go to more than six CPUs, can't go to more than three hosts, doesn't have RAID, doesn't have RAIN and other basics that we expect from other systems.
To do that we are looking at more like $10,000 and we still get limitations, just not as many. And even a moderate sized shop normally sees $10,000 + lots of licensing rigmarole as non-trivial. The licensing issues alone represent a risk vector to add into stability equations. Lots of us have seen blips in stability from that, VMware doesn't approach stability with the same rigour as their competitors.
Even the NTG lab is 400% the scale that VMware Essentials or Essentials Plus will support, not including any of our production. That's a bit crazy. I know several home environments that are out of VMware's scale.
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For how many shops is $500 something that can just be ignored? When I see posts it seems like people are constantly fighting to get the budget for a single Windows Server license even when it is pretty necessary. Spending an extra $500 anywhere, no matter what it is on, does not seem like it would often be trivial. If a company only need the $500 license, then it can only have three servers, tops. How many companies are both so small that they only need three servers maximum but have enough discretionary income that they do not see $500 as a somewhat significant line item?
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@Dashrender said:
The SMB does not believe in Linux based anything - that fact alone kills XenServer unless the IT person in that spot at that time decides they want to do it themselves.
I believe this is the biggest problem. There are shops with "IT Professionals" who are just going with what a vendor told them and probably had someone help them set it up. And this might be why SMB doesn't like support unless it's paid or from an MSP, because whoever is in the department can't do it without help anyway.
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I've seen what happens in SMB when you need consistent, pricey license renewals to keep things updated - oftentimes, things will just stop getting updated after a while.
I also think people choose the "premium name-brand option" when they don't know much about the options available, but know they will need to depend on whatever they use.
Some people are also just much more susceptible to advertising, which VMWare has more of a budget for.
Lastly there's good ol' cognitive dissonance... Same reason why people think it's reasonable to recommend Meraki gear over Ubiquiti for SMB. If you've been using a hammer that has a $500/year price tag for 5+ years, your brain isn't going to like the idea that you could have been using a regular hammer the entire time and will start justifying why regular hammers can't be trusted to put nails into walls. See: Monster cables.
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@WingCreative said:
I've seen what happens in SMB when you need consistent, pricey license renewals to keep things updated - oftentimes, things will just stop getting updated after a while.
I also think people choose the "premium name-brand option" when they don't know much about the options available, but know they will need to depend on whatever they use.
Some people are also just much more susceptible to advertising, which VMWare has more of a budget for.
Lastly there's good ol' cognitive dissonance... Same reason why people think it's reasonable to recommend Meraki gear over Ubiquiti for SMB. If you've been using a hammer that has a $500/year price tag for 5+ years, your brain isn't going to like the idea that you could have been using a regular hammer the entire time and will start justifying why regular hammers can't be trusted to put nails into walls. See: Monster cables.
^ This.
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@WingCreative said:
I've seen what happens in SMB when you need consistent, pricey license renewals to keep things updated - oftentimes, things will just stop getting updated after a while.
That can be a big risk. The same risk that comes with using Windows, Cisco networking gear or most SAN or NAS options, for example. The company has to be committed to maintaining support or else they might lose the ability to keep getting updates that they need for security, stability or compatibility. The longer that they go without support, the harder a migration away generally becomes, too. And often the cost of getting back under support increases as well.
It's a huge financial commitment that the company makes up front. They commit to one of these things:
- Migrating off of the platform.
- Running without any support option.
- Paying a support penalty.
- Paying for support indefinitely.
Almost always at least one of those four things is going to happen when something like VMware is chosen. Not that those are all bad, many enterprises will pay for support indefinitely and have no intention to ever do otherwise and there is essentially no risk that they will be unable to do so. But in the SMB when often the company fails to make payroll, that cash flow risk can cascade to things like being unable to maintain necessary support contracts and once the agreements are breached or lapsed the penalties generally make the situation worse and worse.
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@WingCreative said:
Some people are also just much more susceptible to advertising, which VMWare has more of a budget for.
I would almost say, or maybe I actually do want to say, that I feel that not being susceptible to advertising isn't just critical for being good at IT, it's actually a huge piece of what IT Pros are hired to do. Management could always just do whatever ads told them to do, but they hire IT Pros at the decision making levels to protect them from that. If IT Pros are susceptible to advertising, are they really capable of doing their jobs?
Everyone is susceptible to some degree, of course. But being overly susceptible, especially to the point of being totally blinded by it which often seems to be the case, seems to be at total odds with the requirements of IT decision making.
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@johnhooks said:
@Dashrender said:
The SMB does not believe in Linux based anything - that fact alone kills XenServer unless the IT person in that spot at that time decides they want to do it themselves.
I believe this is the biggest problem. There are shops with "IT Professionals" who are just going with what a vendor told them and probably had someone help them set it up. And this might be why SMB doesn't like support unless it's paid or from an MSP, because whoever is in the department can't do it without help anyway.
The other part of this that actually gives things like XS a bad rap is the fan boy following.
People just blindly spew crap with no substance about free products like XS.
Let me add perspective. I love XS from what I have seen of it. I will never use it in production anytime soon because I cannot ignore all of the time involved in manually setting shit up.
Now with products like XoA out there, I have a serious solution to make XS something I will consider.
But I am not going to spin up XS and XO and this and that and the next thing and then manage it all manually. That is all a waste of time, that I do not have the luxury of wasting.
IT supports the business. IT time is expensive. Wasting it doing things manually to get "free" is one of the dumbest things out there.
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@JaredBusch said:
@johnhooks said:
@Dashrender said:
The SMB does not believe in Linux based anything - that fact alone kills XenServer unless the IT person in that spot at that time decides they want to do it themselves.
I believe this is the biggest problem. There are shops with "IT Professionals" who are just going with what a vendor told them and probably had someone help them set it up. And this might be why SMB doesn't like support unless it's paid or from an MSP, because whoever is in the department can't do it without help anyway.
The other part of this that actually gives things like XS a bad rap is the fan boy following.
People just blindly spew crap with no substance about free products like XS.
Let me add perspective. I love XS from what I have seen of it. I will never use it in production anytime soon because I cannot ignore all of the time involved in manually setting shit up.
Now with products like XoA out there, I have a serious solution to make XS something I will consider.
But I am not going to spin up XS and XO and this and that and the next thing and then manage it all manually. That is all a waste of time, that I do not have the luxury of wasting.
IT supports the business. IT time is expensive. Wasting it doing things manually to get "free" is one of the dumbest things out there.
I don't have experience with VMware, but what makes it more automatic than XS? Even before XO, at a basic level scripts could automate most everything. And with orchestration tools, it's even easier because you can have something like Ansible copy a VM template, update it, and do anything else you need with one command.
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@johnhooks said:
@JaredBusch said:
@johnhooks said:
@Dashrender said:
The SMB does not believe in Linux based anything - that fact alone kills XenServer unless the IT person in that spot at that time decides they want to do it themselves.
I believe this is the biggest problem. There are shops with "IT Professionals" who are just going with what a vendor told them and probably had someone help them set it up. And this might be why SMB doesn't like support unless it's paid or from an MSP, because whoever is in the department can't do it without help anyway.
The other part of this that actually gives things like XS a bad rap is the fan boy following.
People just blindly spew crap with no substance about free products like XS.
Let me add perspective. I love XS from what I have seen of it. I will never use it in production anytime soon because I cannot ignore all of the time involved in manually setting shit up.
Now with products like XoA out there, I have a serious solution to make XS something I will consider.
But I am not going to spin up XS and XO and this and that and the next thing and then manage it all manually. That is all a waste of time, that I do not have the luxury of wasting.
IT supports the business. IT time is expensive. Wasting it doing things manually to get "free" is one of the dumbest things out there.
I don't have experience with VMware, but what makes it more automatic than XS? Even before XO, at a basic level scripts could automate most everything. And with orchestration tools, it's even easier because you can have something like Ansible copy a VM template, update it, and do anything else you need with one command.
It is all about the third party tools. None of it is free. Free is a myth as I just said. To do something "free" takes time. Time is not free. So, nothing is free.
The simplest example I can give is Backups.
You setup XS, or Hyper-V, or VMWare +Essentials. Setup your VMs. Done. This part is honestly the same from VMWare, Hyper-V and XS IMO. Minor process differences aside.
The next thing to setup is backups. I need something automagic, solid and reliable. Veeam nails this for Hyper-V and VMWare+Essentials. XOA is getting this for XS, and once I get time to actually use it, I will probably rank it right there too.
Either way this is XOA not XO. I still have to pay for it, no different than paying for Veeam or Unitrends.
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@JaredBusch said:
@johnhooks said:
@JaredBusch said:
@johnhooks said:
@Dashrender said:
The SMB does not believe in Linux based anything - that fact alone kills XenServer unless the IT person in that spot at that time decides they want to do it themselves.
I believe this is the biggest problem. There are shops with "IT Professionals" who are just going with what a vendor told them and probably had someone help them set it up. And this might be why SMB doesn't like support unless it's paid or from an MSP, because whoever is in the department can't do it without help anyway.
The other part of this that actually gives things like XS a bad rap is the fan boy following.
People just blindly spew crap with no substance about free products like XS.
Let me add perspective. I love XS from what I have seen of it. I will never use it in production anytime soon because I cannot ignore all of the time involved in manually setting shit up.
Now with products like XoA out there, I have a serious solution to make XS something I will consider.
But I am not going to spin up XS and XO and this and that and the next thing and then manage it all manually. That is all a waste of time, that I do not have the luxury of wasting.
IT supports the business. IT time is expensive. Wasting it doing things manually to get "free" is one of the dumbest things out there.
I don't have experience with VMware, but what makes it more automatic than XS? Even before XO, at a basic level scripts could automate most everything. And with orchestration tools, it's even easier because you can have something like Ansible copy a VM template, update it, and do anything else you need with one command.
It is all about the third party tools. None of it is free. Free is a myth as I just said. To do something "free" takes time. Time is not free. So, nothing is free.
The simplest example I can give is Backups.
You setup XS, or Hyper-V, or VMWare +Essentials. Setup your VMs. Done. This part is honestly the same from VMWare, Hyper-V and XS IMO. Minor process differences aside.
The next thing to setup is backups. I need something automagic, solid and reliable. Veeam nails this for Hyper-V and VMWare+Essentials. XOA is getting this for XS, and once I get time to actually use it, I will probably rank it right there too.
Either way this is XOA not XO. I still have to pay for it, no different than paying for Veeam or Unitrends.
Before XOA I used snapback. It's a shell script that you run with a cron job, or multiple cron jobs, that exports a snapshot as a backup (which is what XO and XOA do). You create two custom fields for the VM in XenCenter that tell it daily, weekly, monthly, etc. and how many copies to keep. It never didn't back up for me.
I don't think anything is truly free, but some ways give you knowledge that you can apply in other areas and do cost a lot less at the same time.
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@johnhooks said:
@JaredBusch said:
@johnhooks said:
@JaredBusch said:
@johnhooks said:
@Dashrender said:
The SMB does not believe in Linux based anything - that fact alone kills XenServer unless the IT person in that spot at that time decides they want to do it themselves.
I believe this is the biggest problem. There are shops with "IT Professionals" who are just going with what a vendor told them and probably had someone help them set it up. And this might be why SMB doesn't like support unless it's paid or from an MSP, because whoever is in the department can't do it without help anyway.
The other part of this that actually gives things like XS a bad rap is the fan boy following.
People just blindly spew crap with no substance about free products like XS.
Let me add perspective. I love XS from what I have seen of it. I will never use it in production anytime soon because I cannot ignore all of the time involved in manually setting shit up.
Now with products like XoA out there, I have a serious solution to make XS something I will consider.
But I am not going to spin up XS and XO and this and that and the next thing and then manage it all manually. That is all a waste of time, that I do not have the luxury of wasting.
IT supports the business. IT time is expensive. Wasting it doing things manually to get "free" is one of the dumbest things out there.
I don't have experience with VMware, but what makes it more automatic than XS? Even before XO, at a basic level scripts could automate most everything. And with orchestration tools, it's even easier because you can have something like Ansible copy a VM template, update it, and do anything else you need with one command.
It is all about the third party tools. None of it is free. Free is a myth as I just said. To do something "free" takes time. Time is not free. So, nothing is free.
The simplest example I can give is Backups.
You setup XS, or Hyper-V, or VMWare +Essentials. Setup your VMs. Done. This part is honestly the same from VMWare, Hyper-V and XS IMO. Minor process differences aside.
The next thing to setup is backups. I need something automagic, solid and reliable. Veeam nails this for Hyper-V and VMWare+Essentials. XOA is getting this for XS, and once I get time to actually use it, I will probably rank it right there too.
Either way this is XOA not XO. I still have to pay for it, no different than paying for Veeam or Unitrends.
Before XOA I used snapback. It's a shell script that you run with a cron job, or multiple cron jobs, that exports a snapshot as a backup (which is what XO and XOA do). You create two custom fields for the VM in XenCenter that tell it daily, weekly, monthly, etc. and how many copies to keep. It never didn't back up for me.
I don't think anything is truly free, but some ways give you knowledge that you can apply in other areas and do cost a lot less at the same time.
And are you on site everyday and aware of the backup stauts all the times? Does it email you? How much time does it take to manage when you need to add things? etc. it all adds up.
I used to use ghettovcb for VMWare free. so I know about doing things the cheap (upfront) way.
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@JaredBusch said:
@johnhooks said:
@JaredBusch said:
@johnhooks said:
@JaredBusch said:
@johnhooks said:
@Dashrender said:
The SMB does not believe in Linux based anything - that fact alone kills XenServer unless the IT person in that spot at that time decides they want to do it themselves.
I believe this is the biggest problem. There are shops with "IT Professionals" who are just going with what a vendor told them and probably had someone help them set it up. And this might be why SMB doesn't like support unless it's paid or from an MSP, because whoever is in the department can't do it without help anyway.
The other part of this that actually gives things like XS a bad rap is the fan boy following.
People just blindly spew crap with no substance about free products like XS.
Let me add perspective. I love XS from what I have seen of it. I will never use it in production anytime soon because I cannot ignore all of the time involved in manually setting shit up.
Now with products like XoA out there, I have a serious solution to make XS something I will consider.
But I am not going to spin up XS and XO and this and that and the next thing and then manage it all manually. That is all a waste of time, that I do not have the luxury of wasting.
IT supports the business. IT time is expensive. Wasting it doing things manually to get "free" is one of the dumbest things out there.
I don't have experience with VMware, but what makes it more automatic than XS? Even before XO, at a basic level scripts could automate most everything. And with orchestration tools, it's even easier because you can have something like Ansible copy a VM template, update it, and do anything else you need with one command.
It is all about the third party tools. None of it is free. Free is a myth as I just said. To do something "free" takes time. Time is not free. So, nothing is free.
The simplest example I can give is Backups.
You setup XS, or Hyper-V, or VMWare +Essentials. Setup your VMs. Done. This part is honestly the same from VMWare, Hyper-V and XS IMO. Minor process differences aside.
The next thing to setup is backups. I need something automagic, solid and reliable. Veeam nails this for Hyper-V and VMWare+Essentials. XOA is getting this for XS, and once I get time to actually use it, I will probably rank it right there too.
Either way this is XOA not XO. I still have to pay for it, no different than paying for Veeam or Unitrends.
Before XOA I used snapback. It's a shell script that you run with a cron job, or multiple cron jobs, that exports a snapshot as a backup (which is what XO and XOA do). You create two custom fields for the VM in XenCenter that tell it daily, weekly, monthly, etc. and how many copies to keep. It never didn't back up for me.
I don't think anything is truly free, but some ways give you knowledge that you can apply in other areas and do cost a lot less at the same time.
And are you on site everyday and aware of the backup stauts all the times? Does it email you? How much time does it take to manage when you need to add things? etc. it all adds up.
I used to use ghettovcb for VMWare free. so I know about doing things the cheap (upfront) way.
I was on site for that one so I could see if it did back up, adding another script to have it email once it was done would have been trivial though. Once it was running it would scan each VM for the custom fields, so adding another VM only really took the amount of time it takes to type daily, weekly, or monthly and then a number of copies.
I do get what you're saying, and there are times when paying for the solution is obviously better.
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@johnhooks said:
@JaredBusch said:
@johnhooks said:
@JaredBusch said:
@johnhooks said:
@JaredBusch said:
@johnhooks said:
@Dashrender said:
The SMB does not believe in Linux based anything - that fact alone kills XenServer unless the IT person in that spot at that time decides they want to do it themselves.
I believe this is the biggest problem. There are shops with "IT Professionals" who are just going with what a vendor told them and probably had someone help them set it up. And this might be why SMB doesn't like support unless it's paid or from an MSP, because whoever is in the department can't do it without help anyway.
The other part of this that actually gives things like XS a bad rap is the fan boy following.
People just blindly spew crap with no substance about free products like XS.
Let me add perspective. I love XS from what I have seen of it. I will never use it in production anytime soon because I cannot ignore all of the time involved in manually setting shit up.
Now with products like XoA out there, I have a serious solution to make XS something I will consider.
But I am not going to spin up XS and XO and this and that and the next thing and then manage it all manually. That is all a waste of time, that I do not have the luxury of wasting.
IT supports the business. IT time is expensive. Wasting it doing things manually to get "free" is one of the dumbest things out there.
I don't have experience with VMware, but what makes it more automatic than XS? Even before XO, at a basic level scripts could automate most everything. And with orchestration tools, it's even easier because you can have something like Ansible copy a VM template, update it, and do anything else you need with one command.
It is all about the third party tools. None of it is free. Free is a myth as I just said. To do something "free" takes time. Time is not free. So, nothing is free.
The simplest example I can give is Backups.
You setup XS, or Hyper-V, or VMWare +Essentials. Setup your VMs. Done. This part is honestly the same from VMWare, Hyper-V and XS IMO. Minor process differences aside.
The next thing to setup is backups. I need something automagic, solid and reliable. Veeam nails this for Hyper-V and VMWare+Essentials. XOA is getting this for XS, and once I get time to actually use it, I will probably rank it right there too.
Either way this is XOA not XO. I still have to pay for it, no different than paying for Veeam or Unitrends.
Before XOA I used snapback. It's a shell script that you run with a cron job, or multiple cron jobs, that exports a snapshot as a backup (which is what XO and XOA do). You create two custom fields for the VM in XenCenter that tell it daily, weekly, monthly, etc. and how many copies to keep. It never didn't back up for me.
I don't think anything is truly free, but some ways give you knowledge that you can apply in other areas and do cost a lot less at the same time.
And are you on site everyday and aware of the backup stauts all the times? Does it email you? How much time does it take to manage when you need to add things? etc. it all adds up.
I used to use ghettovcb for VMWare free. so I know about doing things the cheap (upfront) way.
I was on site for that one so I could see if it did back up, adding another script to have it email once it was done would have been trivial though. Once it was running it would scan each VM for the custom fields, so adding another VM only really took the amount of time it takes to type daily, weekly, or monthly and then a number of copies.
I do get what you're saying, and there are times when paying for the solution is obviously better.
Another way to put it is like this.
We don't need a Scale HC3. We can do it all ourselves with pieces and scripts. I mean it is all just Dell hardware running Linux and using KVM and a proprietary VSAN.
Doesn't mean I would want to build one myself. But if I did, I can guarantee you that it would not run as well or be as easy to use. Even if I came out cheaper after accounting for the hardware and labor to build it manually.
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@JaredBusch said:
@johnhooks said:
@JaredBusch said:
@johnhooks said:
@JaredBusch said:
@johnhooks said:
@JaredBusch said:
@johnhooks said:
@Dashrender said:
The SMB does not believe in Linux based anything - that fact alone kills XenServer unless the IT person in that spot at that time decides they want to do it themselves.
I believe this is the biggest problem. There are shops with "IT Professionals" who are just going with what a vendor told them and probably had someone help them set it up. And this might be why SMB doesn't like support unless it's paid or from an MSP, because whoever is in the department can't do it without help anyway.
The other part of this that actually gives things like XS a bad rap is the fan boy following.
People just blindly spew crap with no substance about free products like XS.
Let me add perspective. I love XS from what I have seen of it. I will never use it in production anytime soon because I cannot ignore all of the time involved in manually setting shit up.
Now with products like XoA out there, I have a serious solution to make XS something I will consider.
But I am not going to spin up XS and XO and this and that and the next thing and then manage it all manually. That is all a waste of time, that I do not have the luxury of wasting.
IT supports the business. IT time is expensive. Wasting it doing things manually to get "free" is one of the dumbest things out there.
I don't have experience with VMware, but what makes it more automatic than XS? Even before XO, at a basic level scripts could automate most everything. And with orchestration tools, it's even easier because you can have something like Ansible copy a VM template, update it, and do anything else you need with one command.
It is all about the third party tools. None of it is free. Free is a myth as I just said. To do something "free" takes time. Time is not free. So, nothing is free.
The simplest example I can give is Backups.
You setup XS, or Hyper-V, or VMWare +Essentials. Setup your VMs. Done. This part is honestly the same from VMWare, Hyper-V and XS IMO. Minor process differences aside.
The next thing to setup is backups. I need something automagic, solid and reliable. Veeam nails this for Hyper-V and VMWare+Essentials. XOA is getting this for XS, and once I get time to actually use it, I will probably rank it right there too.
Either way this is XOA not XO. I still have to pay for it, no different than paying for Veeam or Unitrends.
Before XOA I used snapback. It's a shell script that you run with a cron job, or multiple cron jobs, that exports a snapshot as a backup (which is what XO and XOA do). You create two custom fields for the VM in XenCenter that tell it daily, weekly, monthly, etc. and how many copies to keep. It never didn't back up for me.
I don't think anything is truly free, but some ways give you knowledge that you can apply in other areas and do cost a lot less at the same time.
And are you on site everyday and aware of the backup stauts all the times? Does it email you? How much time does it take to manage when you need to add things? etc. it all adds up.
I used to use ghettovcb for VMWare free. so I know about doing things the cheap (upfront) way.
I was on site for that one so I could see if it did back up, adding another script to have it email once it was done would have been trivial though. Once it was running it would scan each VM for the custom fields, so adding another VM only really took the amount of time it takes to type daily, weekly, or monthly and then a number of copies.
I do get what you're saying, and there are times when paying for the solution is obviously better.
Another way to put it is like this.
We don't need a Scale HC3. We can do it all ourselves with pieces and scripts. I mean it is all just Dell hardware running Linux and using KVM and a proprietary VSAN.
Doesn't mean I would want to build one myself. But if I did, I can guarantee you that it would not run as well or be as easy to use. Even if I came out cheaper after accounting for the hardware and labor to build it manually.
I agree 100%, if I had the money I would buy one right now even for my home lab stuff. But you're not paying for a license to unlock some feature that you would want, that you would still have to set up to some degree. So you lose money by paying for the additional feature, and you still have to set it up (I don't know how easy it is do set up things like HA with VMware). So in this case, if you need a 3 node cluster, why would you even look at VMware? If you want those features you would get everything for roughly the same price with Scale.
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Another good point that was made somewhere else was being able to learn at home also. A business should pay for XOA and get support with continuing updates. But, if I want to run it at home, I don't want to pay $70 a month for the same abilities I have at work. So I can run the free one and get all of the features to test with and play around, but put in a minimal amount of work to set it up (and even less the second time if you script it). I can't do that with things like VMware.
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On a side note, I need to play with Hyper-V more. The last time I used it was on my Windows 8.1 laptop about 2 years ago.
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To me, the best solution is Hyper-V if you have a domain and Windows desktops to manage it. Use built in replication to an off-site facility if you want redundancy and then whatever local backup you want. Free Veeam works for that since this time last year when they added the ability to execute jobs from powershell and task scheduler.
Next up, or first if you do not have the Windows infrastructure anyway, would be XS and XOA
Finally would be VMWare+Essentials with purchased Veeam to handle replication and backup.
