How do you bill for time spent Researching and Project Management?
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A line i liked in our meeting from their owner was "if we decide to work with you, this is the last time you will be in our building for free." i thought that was cool to hear.
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Does your ticket system not have a work log to keep track of it.
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I just invoice using fresh books. So no.
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@hubtechagain We bill for research, it is not a different rate. The client is paying for our skills. Correctly researching and analyzing technology choices is part our of skills. Depending on the exact scenario, I have billed part to ourselves and part to the client but that is rare.
We also do not have any fixed hours of billing per month to a client. Everything is billed hourly to all clients.
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Pure research for something the client wants, That I understand billing them for completely. But often a client is expecting you to have knowledge of what they want you to do when it comes to a specific task, Installing a SAN for example.
When a doctor is learning, the patient is billed for both the student's time and the teacher's, only one.
The apprentice system is what we really seem to be missing these days.
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@Dashrender said:
Pure research for something the client wants, That I understand billing them for completely. But often a client is expecting you to have knowledge of what they want you to do when it comes to a specific task, Installing a SAN for example.
That's just a bad expectation. Don't give in to it. Don't allow them to set unreasonable expectations. Clients will do all kinds of crazy things at your expensive if they let you.
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@Dashrender said:
The apprentice system is what we really seem to be missing these days.
We are missing that, it is true, but that doesn't solve this kind of problem.
IT is a "research nearly every situation" job. Research is part of doing IT. There is no "learn up front then do" like in many fields. And no "annual refresher." IT isn't like that.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
The apprentice system is what we really seem to be missing these days.
We are missing that, it is true, but that doesn't solve this kind of problem.
IT is a "research nearly every situation" job. Research is part of doing IT. There is no "learn up front then do" like in many fields. And no "annual refresher." IT isn't like that.
I have to keep remembering the difference between 'bench work' and 'IT work'. That said, I still can't imagine hiring a consultant at $250+/hr to learn how to build a SAN - I fully expect them to already know. Could they run into problems, SURE! will I have to pay for the troubleshooting of that problem, again sure/yes and I'm completely OK with that. But when I'm paying that kind of scratch I don't expect the person to be sending hours and hours learning how to do the setup.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
The apprentice system is what we really seem to be missing these days.
We are missing that, it is true, but that doesn't solve this kind of problem.
IT is a "research nearly every situation" job. Research is part of doing IT. There is no "learn up front then do" like in many fields. And no "annual refresher." IT isn't like that.
I have to keep remembering the difference between 'bench work' and 'IT work'. That said, I still can't imagine hiring a consultant at $250+/hr to learn how to build a SAN - I fully expect them to already know. Could they run into problems, SURE! will I have to pay for the troubleshooting of that problem, again sure/yes and I'm completely OK with that. But when I'm paying that kind of scratch I don't expect the person to be sending hours and hours learning how to do the setup.
Why not? If they put the "upfront" time into research and developing a plan chances are they won't have as much troubleshooting and problems for you to deal with... in addition they will probably be able to more quickly assist you in the future with that SAN (or really anything) in the even that something goes poorly.
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@Dashrender said:
I have to keep remembering the difference between 'bench work' and 'IT work'. That said, I still can't imagine hiring a consultant at $250+/hr to learn how to build a SAN - I fully expect them to already know.
Really? Do you feel that since you are paid right now to do "IT" that any and every task that comes up at work is your responsibility to already know and there is nothing that you should already know - including unique situations that no one but you has ever or might ever encounter? If so, why? And even moreso, how?
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@Dashrender said:
But when I'm paying that kind of scratch I don't expect the person to be sending hours and hours learning how to do the setup.
Define "that kind of scratch?" Problem is, people always define that as "whatever they are paying." Best Buy says "for $12/hour, I expect these people to know everything that there is about desktops!!" But we all know that even seven figure people don't "know everything about desktops" and have to not only research specific situations but also have to continuously research new patches, products, techniques, threats, versions, etc.
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@Dashrender said:
But when I'm paying that kind of scratch I don't expect the person to be sending hours and hours learning how to do the setup.
how do you expect them to know how to do it then? Where does the knowledge for your scenario come from?
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
I have to keep remembering the difference between 'bench work' and 'IT work'. That said, I still can't imagine hiring a consultant at $250+/hr to learn how to build a SAN - I fully expect them to already know.
Really? Do you feel that since you are paid right now to do "IT" that any and every task that comes up at work is your responsibility to already know and there is nothing that you should already know - including unique situations that no one but you has ever or might ever encounter? If so, why? And even moreso, how?
No, because I'm a full time employee. But when you hire a consultant, you're hiring knowledge and probably experience. The unique situations are the exception (I really dislike using that word in this situation because I feel that you're going to come along and tell me that every job is unique, there for an exception).
When I'm talking about learning I'm talking about someone who does not understand the basics of how to setup a Cisco Switch being sent as a consultant to setup said switch. Not a situation where someone has been hired to install a switch and wasn't told there are three VLANs they have to connect to once they arrive.
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@Dashrender said:
No, because I'm a full time employee. But when you hire a consultant, you're hiring knowledge and probably experience.
Why that assumption? When I hire a full time employee, why don't they have knowledge and experience? I pay SO much more, overall, for a full time employee, shouldn't I expect tons more from them?
When you hire a consultant, yes you presumably are doing it to get some special knowledge, experience or capacity. But I feel that you are reading way, way into that something that does not exist.
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@Dashrender said:
The unique situations are the exception (I really dislike using that word in this situation because I feel that you're going to come along and tell me that every job is unique, there for an exception).
Ah, here is the BIG problem. EVERY situation is unique. There are no exceptions, effectively. It is a very very rare and super limited consultant who can do nothing but push buttons and know what will happen. This isn't a consultant to change the oil filter on a 1992 Buick, that's effectively always the same. This is IT, there is no "repeatable case." If you get anywhere close to that, you are dealing only with the entry level consultants who don't need to think on their feet. If you don't need research, you should be questioning why you have a consultant.
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@Dashrender said:
When I'm talking about learning I'm talking about someone who does not understand the basics of how to setup a Cisco Switch being sent as a consultant to setup said switch.
But they have to research YOUR setup and any special cases. You can pick any case out of the air and make it sound like a consultant "should know that". But likewise, take any real world case and I'll show you where unique things can happen. A Cisco switch is a very common task and there are Cisco consultancies everywhere that do just that one thing. Getting someone who knows the commands is pretty easy. Getting someone who knows the commands, for your exact setup, for the exact model(s) that you have, for the exact firmware that you are running, etc. even for a big Cisco shop starts to get less than likely. Because not only does the shop have to have that experience, but you expect every person in that shop to have that experience.
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You have to remember that consultants are IT Pros just like everyone else. Every limitation to learning new things that you would run into as a full timer, they have to run into as a consultant.
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and i'm doing research FOR this company. the dialog was essentially "we're not IT, dont claim to be, dont want to be. We need to fill these voids in our business, can you help us, etc..."
So I've been talking to D and will more than likely just say we will spend x hours researching software, transferring knowledge to client, make recommendation etc and then once a course is picked, provide another proposal for the labor.
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That makes sense.
