Is the Time for VMware in the SMB Over?
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
I want to accept the desire to move to the cloud/colo but I can't see how it doesn't drastically increase costs, and possibly drastically affect performance (bandwidth).
Not sure where you are seeing the cost coming from. How much do you think putting a server into a colo costs?
The last time I saw a quote it was like $100/month per U or more. I currently have 15 U, that would $1500/month, $18K a year. Seems difficult to get over the price tag.
Also, what about the additional bandwidth needed to talk to that datacenter? If I put my AD boxes there, I figure I'll need at least 10/10 bandwidth to ensure a reasonable experience (and that might be low). Assuming I pull all of that over the same ISP line and have no downtime (yeah right on standard business connections). Unless the price is significantly lower, more like $2-5/month/U I'm not sure I see the savings?
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@scottalanmiller said:
...t also the cost of the extra outages that you are protected against or can be, if you chose to be.
I'm less worried about the outages at the DC than I am at my own site.
For example, to ensure as little downtime as possible we have a 10/10 Mb fiber connection (dual rings - though only one route into the building). In 8 years we've only had 13 mins of non scheduled downtime, and those mins came in two blips last spring. The bad thing is we pay $860/month for this.
On the other hand our other three locations in town all have HFC. All of those locations have had multiple outages over the past 8 years, one of them lasting more than a day. On average I'd say an outage lasts approx 2 hours when it happens on HFC.
We have new options available in town now so I'm considering dumping our Fiber connection and moving to two different ISP connections into my main location and setting up alternative routes at the firewall to cover outages. Moving to dual 50/10 connections will cost me around $500/month versus the $860 I pay now, and will increase my download by more than 5 times (10 if I can use both pipes at the same time)
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@Dashrender said:
The last time I saw a quote it was like $100/month per U or more. I currently have 15 U, that would $1500/month, $18K a year. Seems difficult to get over the price tag.
Well anyone can find inflated pricing. But that is super misleading. When buying by the U you are paying "per server". That not $100/U. That is $100/1U Server, I suspect.
We get $50/1U server and like $80 for a 2U server. See how it is not "per U"?
Once you go beyond "per server" pricing you get things like 10U, quarter rack, half rack and full rack pricing which is far, far cheaper "per U" than you pay if you pay per each server being racked.
So a half rack might be $450/mo.
And you missed by point about improving your planning. When you run on-premises you deal with "U sprawl" because the space is free and everything else is not. In a datacenter, the space is what is not free. So with a change in planning, I bet you could reduce that to 4U - 6U if you were planning for space as a concern.
What do you have in that 15U?
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@Dashrender said:
If I put my AD boxes there, I figure I'll need at least 10/10 bandwidth to ensure a reasonable experience (and that might be low).
Is that for a few thousand users? AD uses effectively nothing. A T1 can support hundreds of users no problem. A T1 is 1.544Mb/s. And you don't need symmetric for AD either.
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@Dashrender said:
Unless the price is significantly lower, more like $2-5/month/U I'm not sure I see the savings?
Would you see no benefits at all from having a good WAN connection? What do you have now? Is it not needed to be reliable?
How much are you paying for HVAC and power today? We found that these costs alone paid for the colo.
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@Dashrender said:
For example, to ensure as little downtime as possible we have a 10/10 Mb fiber connection (dual rings - though only one route into the building).
Wait, I thought that you were using the need for 10Mb/s WAN link as a reason that you can't afford a colo. But if you already have that, that's a sunk cost and can't be included here. No additional WAN cost to go to colo, right?
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@Dashrender said:
We have new options available in town now so I'm considering dumping our Fiber connection and moving to two different ISP connections into my main location and setting up alternative routes at the firewall to cover outages. Moving to dual 50/10 connections will cost me around $500/month versus the $860 I pay now, and will increase my download by more than 5 times (10 if I can use both pipes at the same time)
So the colo just gets better and better as an option just based on general good business practices. You save money, move to something more modern and the colo just gets more and more performant as part of the normal shift in technology.
A colo is not a pure win, but everything you are describing suggests that likely you are a very good candidate for at least part of your workload to go to a colo.
What workloads besides AD do you need? AD is the most trivial, pretty much, of any possible workload.
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Some pricing for comparison....
At the enterprise datacenters that we use...
10U quarter cabinet is $275/mo
22U half cabinet is $475/moThat means either you can add up to 7U and still be under 33% of the cost you were assuming. Or you could trim the fat down to 10U (which should be easy for an SMB, nearly all can run in 4U or 6U at a stretch if well planned) and drop to around 15-20% of the cost that you were thinking.
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And if you could drop to closer to 4U, you could probably get down to around $200/mo.
Don't forget that colo is not all or nothing. You can move strategically the workloads that make sense to a colo and not the ones that don't. So often moving a single 1U or 2U server is what makes sense and is generally $100/mo or less.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Well anyone can find inflated pricing. But that is super misleading. When buying by the U you are paying "per server". That not $100/U. That is $100/1U Server, I suspect.
I didn't think it included the server, but perhaps it did and I didn't understand.
And you missed by point about improving your planning. When you run on-premises you deal with "U sprawl" because the space is free and everything else is not. In a datacenter, the space is what is not free. So with a change in planning, I bet you could reduce that to 4U - 6U if you were planning for space as a concern.
What do you have in that 15U?
Oh we definitely have sprawl right now because we have an old tower style P Series converted to rack mount (with luck gone in 1 year - but I've been saying that for a year already), we have another old 3 U IBM that will be docomp'ed this year, two 2-U VMWare servers and two - 2U physical servers (could be virtualized down to a single machine but would require more storage) for our old EHR product, keep for lookups.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
If I put my AD boxes there, I figure I'll need at least 10/10 bandwidth to ensure a reasonable experience (and that might be low).
Is that for a few thousand users? AD uses effectively nothing. A T1 can support hundreds of users no problem. A T1 is 1.544Mb/s. And you don't need symmetric for AD either.
That's more for the file and print serves than AD.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
For example, to ensure as little downtime as possible we have a 10/10 Mb fiber connection (dual rings - though only one route into the building).
Wait, I thought that you were using the need for 10Mb/s WAN link as a reason that you can't afford a colo. But if you already have that, that's a sunk cost and can't be included here. No additional WAN cost to go to colo, right?
That's not right - the 10Mb we have now barely supports our VPNs and Cloud EHR. There is a noticeable drag when someone is downloading large files from the internet.
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@Dashrender said:
That's more for the file and print serves than AD.
File and print are generally the last things to go out to colo. They both are the bandwidth hogs of the organization and the space hogs. Both things that lean away from colo (but can be done, just the last workloads to go there.) Those are the things that you hold back and do last.
Things like AD, applications and databases are ideal colo workloads and should go first.
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@Dashrender said:
That's not right - the 10Mb we have now barely supports our VPNs and Cloud EHR. There is a noticeable drag when someone is downloading large files from the internet.
So that limits it for use by AD how? AD is a low bandwidth, low priority protocol. It does not need to be responsive at all. Unless you are actually out of bandwidth all the time, this should not be a factor.
And what is the VPN for? Wouldn't going to a colo fix VPN issues rather than exacerbate them? This should reduce the load between sites as the colo will have 100Mb/s or more - able to saturate all sites at once and not kill the main site while trying to service the other sites.
I think colo fixes more than you imagine.
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@Dashrender said:
I didn't think it included the server, but perhaps it did and I didn't understand.
Colo does not include the server. It is priced per server that you install (a 1U server costs X, a 2U server costs Y or 22U costs Z.) When you get into "per U" pricing it is not per U but goes down as the size gets bigger. A full cabinet is only a tiny bit more than a half cabinet.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
That's more for the file and print serves than AD.
File and print are generally the last things to go out to colo. They both are the bandwidth hogs of the organization and the space hogs. Both things that lean away from colo (but can be done, just the last workloads to go there.) Those are the things that you hold back and do last.
Things like AD, applications and databases are ideal colo workloads and should go first.
How many SMBs have separate AD from File and Print? Sure I can see applications and db's going there (assuming there isn't a need to pull large amounts of data out of the db to the end user machines).
As for the prices you're mentioning.. 10U for $275/month, this assumes I supply my own servers, right? And you're right, I can easily get myself to under 10U (retire the old IBM 3U windows server, and eventually retire the IBM P series).
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
That's not right - the 10Mb we have now barely supports our VPNs and Cloud EHR. There is a noticeable drag when someone is downloading large files from the internet.
So that limits it for use by AD how? AD is a low bandwidth, low priority protocol. It does not need to be responsive at all. Unless you are actually out of bandwidth all the time, this should not be a factor.
And what is the VPN for? Wouldn't going to a colo fix VPN issues rather than exacerbate them? This should reduce the load between sites as the colo will have 100Mb/s or more - able to saturate all sites at once and not kill the main site while trying to service the other sites.
I think colo fixes more than you imagine.
Hadn't considered that - good point - thanks!
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@Dashrender said:
Oh we definitely have sprawl right now because we have an old tower style P Series converted to rack mount (with luck gone in 1 year - but I've been saying that for a year already), we have another old 3 U IBM that will be docomp'ed this year, two 2-U VMWare servers and two - 2U physical servers (could be virtualized down to a single machine but would require more storage) for our old EHR product, keep for lookups.
If you have old servers and physical servers why do you need even more than two servers? It sounds like this workload could be reduced to no more than 4U and possibly, but probably quite a stretch, down to 2U (storage needs get tough at 2U.) And that's only 4U to give you failover. If you didn't need failover or wanted one half of your failover on-premises you are looking at only 1U to 2U max.
Assuming 4U, which really should be the most you would need it sounds like, you should be able to do $200/mo or less!
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@Dashrender said:
How many SMBs have separate AD from File and Print?
Hopefully zero as you get two VMs per license so who wouldn't have them separate? What's causing you to have them together?
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@Dashrender said:
Sure I can see applications and db's going there (assuming there isn't a need to pull large amounts of data out of the db to the end user machines).
Well apps, not desktops, should be talking to databases. If desktops talk to databases at all, something is seriously wrong.
