Non-IT News Thread
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@dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
It's weird to me that you would expect the EU to get involved in what appears to be an internal conflict, at least as it pertains to currently understood country borders.
What makes something an internal conflict to you? Catalonia has declared independence but its residents are EU citizens. That makes it an external conflict, one that directly affects the EU. The EU has a duty to its citizens. And matters of independence are, by definition, not internal. Claiming that it is internal and that they should not protect all of their citizens is exactly why the EU is failing here.
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@dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
It's weird to me that you would expect the EU to get involved in what appears to be an internal conflict, at least as it pertains to currently understood country borders.
They declared independence. It's now an international conflict that the EU should get involved in. Especially to ensure no human rights violations occur.
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@dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
It's weird to me that you would expect the EU to get involved in what appears to be an internal conflict, at least as it pertains to currently understood country borders.
So if west Texas declared independence from Texas, do you think that the US should not be involved AND automatically revoke American citizenship for all of its people there - especially if they only left Texas and not the US? Or do you think that the US should be involved on things that happen within its borders and that affect its citizens?
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The EU is involved, no matter what. This is a question of EU borders at play. The EU is 100% involved, just not in a universally seen healthy way.
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If the EU is failing it's citizens, then this needs to go to the UN.
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@nerdydad said in Non-IT News Thread:
If the EU is failing it's citizens, then this needs to go to the UN.
UN is not the same, it's not a government. UN really has nothing to do here other than monitor for human rights violations. EU, on the other hand, has a duty to its citizens.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
The EU is involved, no matter what. This is a question of EU borders at play. The EU is 100% involved, just not in a universally seen healthy way.
That same statement could be made here in the US as well.
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And to protect its borders. This is a lesson that the EU did not learn well from the US. Overly sovereign internal states are a bad thing, the "state above the citizens" never works out well.
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@nerdydad said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
The EU is involved, no matter what. This is a question of EU borders at play. The EU is 100% involved, just not in a universally seen healthy way.
That same statement could be made here in the US as well.
In what context? Certainly any context that involves the changing of the US borders.
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Part of the reason that the EU is 100% involved, the EU is now in dispute with Catalonia as to who are and are not EU citizens and where the borders of the EU exist. The declaration of independence from Spain, given the EU's response, is a defacto independence from the EU, as well.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Part of the reason that the EU is 100% involved, the EU is now in dispute with Catalonia as to who are and are not EU citizens and where the borders of the EU exist. The declaration of independence from Spain, given the EU's response, is a defacto independence from the EU, as well.
That's troubling. So Scotland would be in the same boat if their independence movement continued to build steam.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
It's weird to me that you would expect the EU to get involved in what appears to be an internal conflict, at least as it pertains to currently understood country borders.
So if west Texas declared independence from Texas, do you think that the US should not be involved AND automatically revoke American citizenship for all of its people there - especially if they only left Texas and not the US? Or do you think that the US should be involved on things that happen within its borders and that affect its citizens?
This would depend on the wishes of the local government of that province. Do they want to become their own state or their own country? If they just want to become a state, Spain needs to honor their wishes and EU needs to condone it. If they want total sovereignty, then the EU needs to honor it and let them separate entirely.
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@nerdydad said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
It's weird to me that you would expect the EU to get involved in what appears to be an internal conflict, at least as it pertains to currently understood country borders.
So if west Texas declared independence from Texas, do you think that the US should not be involved AND automatically revoke American citizenship for all of its people there - especially if they only left Texas and not the US? Or do you think that the US should be involved on things that happen within its borders and that affect its citizens?
This would depend on the wishes of the local government of that province. Do they want to become their own state or their own country? If they just want to become a state, Spain needs to honor their wishes and EU needs to condone it. If they want total sovereignty, then the EU needs to honor it and let them separate entirely.
Regardless of either of those. Catalonia declared their independence from Spain not the EU. There are still EU citizens within Catalonia and the EU has the obligation to protect and support them in this instance.
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@coliver said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Part of the reason that the EU is 100% involved, the EU is now in dispute with Catalonia as to who are and are not EU citizens and where the borders of the EU exist. The declaration of independence from Spain, given the EU's response, is a defacto independence from the EU, as well.
That's troubling. So Scotland would be in the same boat if their independence movement continued to build steam.
Yes, and the EU told them quite clearly that they would be cut off and shunned if they did it. Then the Brexit happened and it is happening to them anyway. Basically, in the case of Scotland, the EU has kicked them out, period. No option for remaining no matter what they did.
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@nerdydad said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
It's weird to me that you would expect the EU to get involved in what appears to be an internal conflict, at least as it pertains to currently understood country borders.
So if west Texas declared independence from Texas, do you think that the US should not be involved AND automatically revoke American citizenship for all of its people there - especially if they only left Texas and not the US? Or do you think that the US should be involved on things that happen within its borders and that affect its citizens?
This would depend on the wishes of the local government of that province. Do they want to become their own state or their own country? If they just want to become a state, Spain needs to honor their wishes and EU needs to condone it. If they want total sovereignty, then the EU needs to honor it and let them separate entirely.
Yeah, no one is letting any of that happen.
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@coliver said in Non-IT News Thread:
@nerdydad said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
It's weird to me that you would expect the EU to get involved in what appears to be an internal conflict, at least as it pertains to currently understood country borders.
So if west Texas declared independence from Texas, do you think that the US should not be involved AND automatically revoke American citizenship for all of its people there - especially if they only left Texas and not the US? Or do you think that the US should be involved on things that happen within its borders and that affect its citizens?
This would depend on the wishes of the local government of that province. Do they want to become their own state or their own country? If they just want to become a state, Spain needs to honor their wishes and EU needs to condone it. If they want total sovereignty, then the EU needs to honor it and let them separate entirely.
Regardless of either of those. Catalonia declared their independence from Spain not the EU. There are still EU citizens within Catalonia and the EU has the obligation to protect and support them in this instance.
The EU negates your citizenship on the spot. That's the problem. Do something the EU doesn't like, they just kick you out so it isn't their problem. Then they give the people that abused you unlimited rights to keep you from coming back later.
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Been about 100 years since the last civil war in Spain. That was also when Catalonia was assimilated into Spain.
I don't think this ends well for citizens of Catalonia; despite their wishes for independence, it isn't going to happen. Spain would become a 3rd world nation in western Europe without the economic benefits Catalonia provides to the rest of the country. -
@momurda said in Non-IT News Thread:
Been about 100 years since the last civil war in Spain. That was also when Catalonia was assimilated into Spain.
I don't think this ends well for citizens of Catalonia; despite their wishes for independence, it isn't going to happen. Spain would become a 3rd world nation in western Europe without the economic benefits Catalonia provides to the rest of the country.Yup, really it is the EU that is going to be torn apart by this. Staunch EU supporters are rethinking its place in the world because of the power of the EU being used to clamp down on regional freedoms and to remove democracy.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
It's weird to me that you would expect the EU to get involved in what appears to be an internal conflict, at least as it pertains to currently understood country borders.
So if west Texas declared independence from Texas, do you think that the US should not be involved AND automatically revoke American citizenship for all of its people there - especially if they only left Texas and not the US? Or do you think that the US should be involved on things that happen within its borders and that affect its citizens?
If, and only if the EU is as responsible for the EU citizens as the US Gov't is for US citizens, then yes, the EU should get involved - but if they are not, then I don't see the EU getting any more involved than France or other countries did when we had our civil war.
How is this any different than our civil war?
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@dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
It's weird to me that you would expect the EU to get involved in what appears to be an internal conflict, at least as it pertains to currently understood country borders.
So if west Texas declared independence from Texas, do you think that the US should not be involved AND automatically revoke American citizenship for all of its people there - especially if they only left Texas and not the US? Or do you think that the US should be involved on things that happen within its borders and that affect its citizens?
If, and only if the EU is as responsible for the EU citizens as the US Gov't is for US citizens, then yes, the EU should get involved - but if they are not, then I don't see the EU getting any more involved than France or other countries did when we had our civil war.
How is this any different than our civil war?
So you think that the US should not have been involved in its own civil war? How can a country not be involved in its own war?
This is about if the EU should or should not be involved. It is an EU war, the EU is 100% involved, no matter what.
