How do you guys handle counter offers?
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@JaredBusch said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
I also don't agree with the negativity around counter offers. They can work out.
It can never work out unless the company is really that stupid.
Feels like anyone who doesn't conform to your world view must, therefore, be "stupid".
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@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@JaredBusch said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
I also don't agree with the negativity around counter offers. They can work out.
It can never work out unless the company is really that stupid.
Feels like anyone who doesn't conform to your world view must, therefore, be "stupid".
Nearly everyone recommends not taking counteroffers, it's not @JaredBusch view such specifically.
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I'm not recommending anyone takes a counter offer. I'm saying that there are occasions when it can work out. Calling people stupid when you don't know the circumstances is OTT.
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@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
I also don't agree with the negativity around counter offers. They can work out. You've ended up in a position where you are massively important to your employer and they have been forced to recognise that and they've responded in a positive way.
I would disagree with "in a positive way". Counter offers are a negative way. Being "forced" to recognize it under extortion is a "negative way". Having an employee willing to interview elsewhere but then go back to the "scorned lover" is a negative way. It makes all things negative. Can it work out? I don't believe so, if it appears to have worked out, it highlights how badly the situation was already going and the bar for what is positive and negative is skewed. It means it's a disrespectful relationship on both sides when it appears to have worked out.
Counter offers mean pay through extortion. You can't argue that people like being extorted. And people don't like having to extort. When it works out, it just means the situation has to be so bad that the extortion isn't the bad part.
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@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
I don't buy the poisoned well argument. Not least because of the concept of confirmation bias. They would look back at the situation in a positive way rather than negative - "our employee is awesome and we expertly negotiated him to stay and averted a crisis".
Basically I read this as "crappy people working with crappy people are okay with how crappy things are." Everything about the situation is bad. Having to convince someone else to give you an offer so you can threaten your current employer to get raises you feel you should already have gotten as a process... if that makes someone happy looking back, I feel that that makes our point.
You might think they would then put in contingencies to dilute your importance (and maybe even fire you later) but companies are generally content to just kick the can down the road and carry on as if nothing happened. They might treat you with greater respect.
Right.. bad companies act badly. But bad companies also make bad situations. Everything is "bad" in the scenario you describe. The people, the situation, the company. There's nothing good other than "you got more money in the short term", but that was already the assumption with the other offer so isn't a "good" per se.
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@JaredBusch said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
I also don't agree with the negativity around counter offers. They can work out.
It can never work out unless the company is really that stupid.
And even then, again, just describing an overall bad situation. We replace the worry that it will sour the individual relationship with a bigger "the entire situation on a bigger scale is bad."
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@JaredBusch said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
You've ended up in a position where you are massively important to your employer and they have been forced to recognise that and they've responded in a positive way.
This is certainly not positive in any way. They have simply been forced to pay you more until they can replace you on their terms (i.e. no unemployment). You are in not in a position of massive importance to the employer. That is only in your head.
They won't always replace you. That's highly likely, but if they don't replace you it might be even worse. It's always negative, but not always in that one specific way.
A company that would even give a counter offer is bad, but maybe because they just don't have raise processes. Maybe they don't think of any employee has having value. Maybe they are just cheap bastards and hope everyone can be pressured into low pay. Lots of options. But all bad.
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@Obsolesce said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@flaxking said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@JaredBusch said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
You are in not in a position of massive importance to the employer. That is only in your head.
^^^ This for sure. Will things not run as smoothly? Likely. Will shit hit the fan? Possibly. But businesses of this size tend to be pretty resilient. And while your way might have been better, typically someone can step in and get them going when something happens, even if it means just swapping out a most of the previous setup.
Yeah, they can always bring in an MSP for less than the cost of that sole "IT Manager" I'm sure.
This is essentially guaranteed. I've never found a situation where the IT manager couldn't be replaced for less, while getting more value to the business, unless the IT manager was like volunteering, and even then it's pretty competitive.
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@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@JaredBusch said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
I also don't agree with the negativity around counter offers. They can work out.
It can never work out unless the company is really that stupid.
Feels like anyone who doesn't conform to your world view must, therefore, be "stupid".
If it feels that way, it would be an emotional defense response because in no way is that what he said. What he said is very logical, just missing the "why". In order for it to "work out" the company has to be doing really dumb things, taking on unnecessary cost and risk, and not treating employees effectively. That's... stupid in business terms. It's that simple.
Stupid isn't smart. Saying it "works out" is misleading. That's the "it worked for me" fallacy. We can't define the job as being good only because you are able to keep it... the overall situation is still a negative. You have a "stupid" company that only pays under extortion and doesn't value their employees, you have employees that work at a place that they know doesn't value them and isn't happy with what they are paid. Both parties are in a bad position. Just because there are times that the employee gets to stay and the company doesn't reduce their pay later doesn't imply it "worked out".
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@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
I'm not recommending anyone takes a counter offer. I'm saying that there are occasions when it can work out. Calling people stupid when you don't know the circumstances is OTT.
- Only you applied the word "stupid" to the people. Jared called the business stupid.
- We are saying that when people say it worked out, that's just something that people say but if you look at those situations, they have to lower the bar as to what "working out" means to make the claim.
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Keep in mind the options are not "no raise" or "raise through extortion". Those are both bad outcomes (assuming that you deserve a raise.) The right outcome is getting a raise without extortion. This can be from automatic raises or from requesting one. Automatic is nicer, but requested isn't wrong.
If you have any faith in your company, you'll feel comfortable discussing a raise with them. This is a normal part of being an employee.
Using "I have another offer from another company" means that either you didn't trust your current employer to give you the raise that you felt you deserved, or that you felt you could get more by having another offer on the table; or that you tried and they determined you not to be worth what you were asking. Or the extremely rare "I wasn't looking but someone made me an offer", which does happen, but is super crazy rare and mostly only through family connections or being famous.
Because the only real ways that you could have an offer are ways that mean that the well is already poisoned in the first place (you don't believe in the management of your company and/or they don't believe in you, or both) and so it's not the counter offer that poisons the well, a counter offer itself is an artefact of an already poisoned well - you and your employer couldn't come to an agreement without bringing in an extortion element and threatening to quit if you don't get your way.
There is a good way to get raises and to discuss raises in a good company. And there is a counter offer. But the counter offer isn't what's wrong, its the situation that brought you to the point of having a counter offer in the first place. Once there is an opportunity for there to be a counter offer, the need to move on is already solidly in place.
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@scottalanmiller said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
- We are saying that when people say it worked out, that's just something that people say but if you look at those situations, they have to lower the bar as to what "working out" means to make the claim.
By "lower the bar" you mean doing the same job but earning 50% more money. Yes, I think a lot of people would take that.
Anyway, it sounds like the OP handed in his notice and his employer is trying to persuade him to change his mind. That's not extortion. That's normal. It sounds like his mind is made up anyway, so fair play for sticking to his guns. I don't know if I would for that kind of money. I'd be tempted to stick around as I could then find another job if it didn't work out. But it is definitely not extortion.
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I am surprised by the reaction on here. Maybe it's a cultural thing because it is so common and normal in Europe. Certainly over here you can't just fire people, as it is predicted will be the outcome in the OP's case.
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@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
I am surprised by the reaction on here. Maybe it's a cultural thing because it is so common and normal in Europe. Certainly over here you can't just fire people, as it is predicted will be the outcome in the OP's case.
That's just one bad outcome. Being in a shop that resents you and doesn't respect you (or what IT does) is the bigger concern. People are way, way over stating the "you'll get fired" card. That's possible, of course, but not super likely. Screwed in the long run is the likely thing. Lack of future raises, less respect, fewer options. In fact, getting fired is probably the better thing in most cases.
Remember what all has to happen for this situation to arise. Just because you can strong arm them once, doesn't mean that you can again. But it is expected that in order to keep advancing, you'll have to. Each time it gets harder as your value to other companies gets to be less and less, and your own company can do a lot to reduce your value to future employers or reduce the chances of you getting hired. Just telling another company that you did this is enough for many to not hire you.
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@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
By "lower the bar" you mean doing the same job but earning 50% more money. Yes, I think a lot of people would take that.
Yes, lots of people would. That's not really here nor there. The average person manages their career really poorly and lets companies run roughshod over them, especially in the IT field where we drastically undervalue ourselves and overvalue the company.
Things that are missing here...
- It's not necessary the same job. In fact, it's incredibly unlikely to remain the same job.
- That it is 50% more than "too little" means basically nothing. It's not 50% more than the alternative today. And it will easily be 50% less over time.
People are short sighted and managers know this. They will try to trick people into short term benefits because they don't see the big picture. The company knows that they can fire you, lower your pay, reduce your benefits, stop future pay raises, lower your title, increase your responsibilities, or just make life suck so that you want to quit anytime that they want to. They aren't trapped with your new pay, but you just burned your bridge on another job.
For them, they take on little risk. For you, you take on a bit, and they know it. They know that your long term earning potential just dropped and that your ability to strong arm them to more raises will be less in the future. Plus they know you will do it so can plan for it and be ready now.
It's easy to hear 50% increase and think it is automatically a good deal. But that's like a sale where you get 50% off. Sounds great, but if the item was overpriced in the first place, it might still be overpriced. We know he was getting screwed on salary in the past. So 50% over screwed doesn't make it the better option. Better than nothing, absolutely. Better than the alternative that he should take? No, doesn't sound good at all. The other job sounds like the absolute clear winner.
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@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
Anyway, it sounds like the OP handed in his notice and his employer is trying to persuade him to change his mind. That's not extortion.
That depends. If you do this and take the persuasion, that's what extortion is. Lots and lots of people take new job offers just to tell their old jobs and see if they can invoke panic to get more money for their existing job. And it often "works", meaning that they get a counter offer and take it. That's not working out agreed value for the future, that's "I'm ready to leave you high and dry right now, today, what will you pay me to keep your business running?" Sure employers will pay a lot under that kind of stress, but they will almost universally resent it. If they weren't willing to pay that without that threat, they will always regret it. Why do you feel people would be happy if that threat is required to get the pay? Imagine if it happened to you... you refuse to pay someone X, so they come up with a way to scare you so you will pay it. Obviously, you'll not be happy even if you agree to pay.
The OP here didn't do this in order to extort them. But if he accepts the counter offer, he might as well have because no one, not his old employer or the new one would know the difference. Intentional extortion or accidental appears the same. And the result would be expected to be the same - both companies would see him differently than they did before. One resents being "used" just to try to get a counter offer, the other resents being negotiated with under threat of walking out immediately.
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@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
I am surprised by the reaction on here. Maybe it's a cultural thing because it is so common and normal in Europe. Certainly over here you can't just fire people, as it is predicted will be the outcome in the OP's case.
You can just be fired in most states in the US, but no one is ever worried about that when negotiating because:
- You have a new job lined up
- You are obviously more valuable than what you were making before
- Since you are valuable, your employer needs to squeeze the last few drips out of you to help backfill
There is no upside advantage for an employer just to fire you.
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@IRJ said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
There is no upside advantage for an employer just to fire you.
But a lot to phase you out. Not that they will, that's just one of many ways that we expect a relationship to go wrong.
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@scottalanmiller said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@IRJ said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
There is no upside advantage for an employer just to fire you.
But a lot to phase you out. Not that they will, that's just one of many ways that we expect a relationship to go wrong.
Right, but not an immediate risk of discussing an offer.
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@IRJ said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
Right, but not an immediate risk of discussing an offer.
Oh right, no. It's like six months or six years down the road. It's a long play, because they can't fire you on the spot due to the extortion. If they were happy to fire you on the spot, then you had zero leverage to extort, obviously.
