Not Using Huawei
-
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
China loves stealing US technology, so a backdoor being open, is a big problem
Only if you have secrets worth stealing, which while that might feel common, it actually isn't. At most maybe .1% of companies have something even worth stealing, and having a back door and being able to steal them is a big gap yet. If you are in that .1%, absolutely, things like this are potentially a big concern. Totally, I'm with you.
But for most companies, even if 100% of their data was packed up and shipped to CHina in a box with a bow, it would be worthless.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
So if we use logic and standard risk management, things like "its a bad government" never really area factor, because that itself doesn't affect us. It's terrible that they are bad, yes, but that's an unrelated matter and doesn't influence the server situation.
Now, you don't want to buy a server to give money to people who will ultimately be taxed by that government, sure. But that would need to be stated in a completely different way.
Oh well I mean as long as the server doesn't have a backdoor to a foreign government, then sure, wherever a given piece of hardware or software doesn't matter.
I'm not sure what you mean in your last two sentences though. -
@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
China loves stealing US technology, so a backdoor being open, is a big problem
Only if you have secrets worth stealing, which while that might feel common, it actually isn't. At most maybe .1% of companies have something even worth stealing, and having a back door and being able to steal them is a big gap yet. If you are in that .1%, absolutely, things like this are potentially a big concern. Totally, I'm with you.
But for most companies, even if 100% of their data was packed up and shipped to CHina in a box with a bow, it would be worthless.
Well of course, but regardless, I still wouldn't be comfortable knowing that my hardware has a backdoor broadcasting our companies information to China, or anyone for that matter.
What if China takes PCI related information and leaks it either intentionally or unintentionally (data gets hacked for example)?
Then my fictional company would be liable for that information being out in the open.
Is this sort of situation possible? Of course. Is it probable? No lol...But that's not the point either. -
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
I'm not sure what you mean in your last two sentences though.
I mean your logic should result in this. Avoiding Huawei or any other specific vendor should be based on the actions and risks of that vendor, not a concern about the "evilness" of their government. Because the two are separate no matter what people like to claim.
BUT... if you do buy from Huawei, then even though Huawei has been pretty solidly shown to be completely clean on their own, their corporate tax revenue will flow to the Chinese government. And that is bad. So avoiding Huewei because you think that they are risky, doesn't make sense. Avoiding them because you don't want to support the Chinese government through taxable revenue, does make sense.
Basically... the more we analyze it, the less risk Huewei has as a company or product. Reality is, it's probably just about the safest gear that you can buy today, there is no vendor more heavily monitored, tested, questioned, suspected, etc. If there was anything to be found, it would have been found for sure. Moreso, if there is one vendor that the Chinese gov't is going to want to avoid being anywhere near, it is them. There is a massive political and market pressure to make sure that if the gov't is going to interfere with someone, that it be anyone but them.
Basically, if the Chinese gov't is interfering with companies, and likely they are just like the US does, the place that they are least likely to do it is Huawei at this point.
-
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
Well of course, but regardless, I still wouldn't be comfortable knowing that my hardware has a backdoor broadcasting our companies information to China, or anyone for that matter.
Sure, but if you include "anyone", then US gear is the most risky. Both because it is routinely found to be the ones with the backdoors and because the US government is the ones that can easily make use of nearly any data you have.
Basically you can't completely avoid back doors... but you can go with vendors like Huawei with a better track record, and you can account for which backdoors are greater or lesser risks to your business. That's about it.
Other than open source, where you can actively reduce overall risks. But this rarely applies to hardware, which is where the real problems are.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
I'm not sure what you mean in your last two sentences though.
I mean your logic should result in this. Avoiding Huawei or any other specific vendor should be based on the actions and risks of that vendor, not a concern about the "evilness" of their government. Because the two are separate no matter what people like to claim.
BUT... if you do buy from Huawei, then even though Huawei has been pretty solidly shown to be completely clean on their own, their corporate tax revenue will flow to the Chinese government. And that is bad. So avoiding Huewei because you think that they are risky, doesn't make sense. Avoiding them because you don't want to support the Chinese government through taxable revenue, does make sense.
Basically... the more we analyze it, the less risk Huewei has as a company or product. Reality is, it's probably just about the safest gear that you can buy today, there is no vendor more heavily monitored, tested, questioned, suspected, etc. If there was anything to be found, it would have been found for sure. Moreso, if there is one vendor that the Chinese gov't is going to want to avoid being anywhere near, it is them. There is a massive political and market pressure to make sure that if the gov't is going to interfere with someone, that it be anyone but them.
Basically, if the Chinese gov't is interfering with companies, and likely they are just like the US does, the place that they are least likely to do it is Huawei at this point.
It is pretty ridiculous to ban one company from a country. Why not instead just tell consumers to watch out for their products, then when they are forced to remove the backdoor or whatever the issue may be, they can continue making money.
Consumers should be left to choose whichever products they want. -
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
I'm not sure what you mean in your last two sentences though.
I mean your logic should result in this. Avoiding Huawei or any other specific vendor should be based on the actions and risks of that vendor, not a concern about the "evilness" of their government. Because the two are separate no matter what people like to claim.
BUT... if you do buy from Huawei, then even though Huawei has been pretty solidly shown to be completely clean on their own, their corporate tax revenue will flow to the Chinese government. And that is bad. So avoiding Huewei because you think that they are risky, doesn't make sense. Avoiding them because you don't want to support the Chinese government through taxable revenue, does make sense.
Basically... the more we analyze it, the less risk Huewei has as a company or product. Reality is, it's probably just about the safest gear that you can buy today, there is no vendor more heavily monitored, tested, questioned, suspected, etc. If there was anything to be found, it would have been found for sure. Moreso, if there is one vendor that the Chinese gov't is going to want to avoid being anywhere near, it is them. There is a massive political and market pressure to make sure that if the gov't is going to interfere with someone, that it be anyone but them.
Basically, if the Chinese gov't is interfering with companies, and likely they are just like the US does, the place that they are least likely to do it is Huawei at this point.
It is pretty ridiculous to ban one company from a country. Why not instead just tell consumers to watch out for their products, then when they are forced to remove the backdoor or whatever the issue may be, they can continue making money.
Consumers should be left to choose whichever products they want.Right, if "the government can interfere" is the logic, we need to close the border and ban all trade with that country. If a single product (okay, maybe not simply plastic stuff) is allowed through, then it implies "intentionally promoting foreign spying" if the first logic was true. Since everything isn't banned, and especially that Lenovo who is known to spy over and over again, is not banned, then the gov't has no actual concern and the ban is fake.
But that's a separate issue from the risk to business vs "just doing good things" logic. Huawei simply isn't a business risk, that much is clear. It's neither a known spy, nor a likely spy, nor as risky as any other major vendor. But money that goes to Huawei will be taxed and fund a government that you don't want to support is very real and a reason to not buy any Chinese product... but requires not buying any Chinese product because shoes, shirts, boxes, toys, servers all equally have the problem of funding the regime.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
I'm not sure what you mean in your last two sentences though.
I mean your logic should result in this. Avoiding Huawei or any other specific vendor should be based on the actions and risks of that vendor, not a concern about the "evilness" of their government. Because the two are separate no matter what people like to claim.
BUT... if you do buy from Huawei, then even though Huawei has been pretty solidly shown to be completely clean on their own, their corporate tax revenue will flow to the Chinese government. And that is bad. So avoiding Huewei because you think that they are risky, doesn't make sense. Avoiding them because you don't want to support the Chinese government through taxable revenue, does make sense.
Basically... the more we analyze it, the less risk Huewei has as a company or product. Reality is, it's probably just about the safest gear that you can buy today, there is no vendor more heavily monitored, tested, questioned, suspected, etc. If there was anything to be found, it would have been found for sure. Moreso, if there is one vendor that the Chinese gov't is going to want to avoid being anywhere near, it is them. There is a massive political and market pressure to make sure that if the gov't is going to interfere with someone, that it be anyone but them.
Basically, if the Chinese gov't is interfering with companies, and likely they are just like the US does, the place that they are least likely to do it is Huawei at this point.
It is pretty ridiculous to ban one company from a country. Why not instead just tell consumers to watch out for their products, then when they are forced to remove the backdoor or whatever the issue may be, they can continue making money.
Consumers should be left to choose whichever products they want.Right, if "the government can interfere" is the logic, we need to close the border and ban all trade with that country. If a single product (okay, maybe not simply plastic stuff) is allowed through, then it implies "intentionally promoting foreign spying" if the first logic was true. Since everything isn't banned, and especially that Lenovo who is known to spy over and over again, is not banned, then the gov't has no actual concern and the ban is fake.
But that's a separate issue from the risk to business vs "just doing good things" logic. Huawei simply isn't a business risk, that much is clear. It's neither a known spy, nor a likely spy, nor as risky as any other major vendor. But money that goes to Huawei will be taxed and fund a government that you don't want to support is very real and a reason to not buy any Chinese product... but requires not buying any Chinese product because shoes, shirts, boxes, toys, servers all equally have the problem of funding the regime.
Ahhhh, yeah so this was likely more of a ploy to say, "In your face China! We're banning Huawei because, tariffs."
lol.........Ok but we can agree that communism is bad right?
-
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
Ok but we can agree that communism is bad right?
This gets sticky, as China isn't actually communist at all. They use the term, but are actually a single party dictatorship. Communism the political concept, and countries that use the term, generally don't overlap. Communism has good and bad concepts. It's biggest problems, of real communism, are a lack of efficiency and an inability to encourage investment and growth. Most people use communism to refer to places like China, which are actually capitalist (moreso than the US, in fact) quite far from communism, but use the term a lot. It's one of those "he doth protest too much" things. Countries tend to call themselves communist to divert attention from what they really are. Real communism has problems, but none of the ones we are concerned about in China. Problems of planned economies, cracking down on dissidents, lacking democracy.... those are unrelated problems, but ones that historically America has branded as communism for Cold War reasons.
Is communism bad? Yes. But very bad? No. Is there any communist country to really point to as an example? Absolutely not. There is no government practicing communism on any scale that would show it to be good or bad or indifferent. Some communist concepts exists in them, but some exist in the US, too.
It's also important to note... communism is in no way an alternative to democracy. Imagine any country voting for communism - instantly you have both. In fact, accepting communism is a problem of democracies. Democracies don't protect against communism and other "poor" resulting government forms, so it's actually a good example of why democracies are bad. Because all democracies, given time, will vote out freedom and once voted out, there's no vote to get it back.
-
Freedom, like the Brexit, is a "ratchet vote", given enough times voting for a one way decision, it's a guaranteed outcome. You just can't guarantee how long it will take.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
Ok but we can agree that communism is bad right?
Is communism bad? Yes. But very bad? No. Is there any communist country to really point to as an example?
Venezuela, Soviet Union, Vietnam, North Korea, and yeah China.
-
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
Ok but we can agree that communism is bad right?
Is communism bad? Yes. But very bad? No. Is there any communist country to really point to as an example?
Venezuela, Soviet Union, Vietnam, North Korea, and yeah China.
Right, all not communist. Hence my point. All dictators not practicing communism.
All have some communist points, but I covered all this in what I wrote... that specifically these weren't communist, but use it as something that they say to cover up what they actually are... dictators or oligarchies. Very, very different from communism.
-
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
Venezuela
They are, for example, a federal presidential republic. The same as the US.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
Ok but we can agree that communism is bad right?
Is communism bad? Yes. But very bad? No. Is there any communist country to really point to as an example?
Venezuela, Soviet Union, Vietnam, North Korea, and yeah China.
Right, all not communist. Hence my point. All dictators not practicing communism.
All have some communist points, but I covered all this in what I wrote... that specifically these weren't communist, but use it as something that they say to cover up what they actually are... dictators or oligarchies. Very, very different from communism.
State control of the economy, check.
No private property, check.
Distribution of wealth, check.
Well and these dictators have a board of officials, but um...still man, they're communist. At least mostly communist lol. -
@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
Venezuela
They are, for example, a federal presidential republic. The same as the US.
Not anymore, they elected a socialist. That socialist and officials took over the economy, distribute wealth, have taken over businesses and or direct control.
They're now communist. -
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
Venezuela
They are, for example, a federal presidential republic. The same as the US.
Not anymore, they elected a socialist. That socialist and officials took over the economy, distribute wealth, have taken over businesses and or direct control.
They're now communist.Socialism and communism are extremely different things. And they didn't take over the economy. They screwed it up, but didn't take it over. Companies are still private. All, no, but that's the same in the US. Wealth is always distributed, that's called taxes. US has that too.
-
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
No private property, check.
They all have that. Where do you think people don't have private property? You are correct that early Communism ideals called for an end to it, but no country practices that, not even close. These are all countries where you or I could go buy property today, and have very good protections around it similar to what we have in the US. Eminent domain exists everywhere, but that isn't quite the same.
China is highly capitalistic with private ownership of businesses, property, real estate, etc. with more freedom to invest than almost anywhere in the world, and certainly moreso than anywhere in the west. It's often the lack of control that causes many of their issues.
-
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
At least mostly communist lol.
This is the tough part. SOme places, like Laos and Cuba, are "more communist" and others less. Wikipedia says there are only four countries left with any real claims to communism today, two of them tiny, two larger. But even Vietnam, we have people here who have private property there and it's not communist at all in teh way that you are thinking it would be. Relatively free society, total rights to property, government oversees,but does not run the economy, etc.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
@kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:
Venezuela
They are, for example, a federal presidential republic. The same as the US.
Not anymore, they elected a socialist. That socialist and officials took over the economy, distribute wealth, have taken over businesses and or direct control.
They're now communist.Socialism and communism are extremely different things. And they didn't take over the economy. They screwed it up, but didn't take it over. Companies are still private. All, no, but that's the same in the US. Wealth is always distributed, that's called taxes. US has that too.
*sigh...When you start controlling companies by force, rigging elections, distributing wealth (no...not taxes), again no private property (government has been known to take peoples property on a whim), you're government is then practicing communist.
Marxism, socialism, communism, they're all essentially the same. "Guaranteed jobs! Free everything! Communal (insert community shared crap here)" -
Communism, because of its nature, is one of those things that if something isn't completely communist, it's not really communist at all. Similar to freedom. You can't be "almost free", you either are, or you are not. Like you can't have a free society... except no freedom of speech. Without that, there is no means to be free. Communism, or freedom, you kind of have to go all in for it to be that thing. A totally unfree society, allowing a single freedom like the press, doesn't become "essentially free", it's just one aspect of freedom being allowed.
