Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be
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@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
Right, that's people getting paid for something that wouldn't be needed except for a corrupt tax dodge.
Are group benefits a corrupt tax dodge?
If taxes are the benefit - then yes. it's a corrupt tax dodge.
But the insurance companies themselves offering lower prices to their customers has nothing to do with taxes.
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@Jimmy9008 said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Dashrender said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@JaredBusch said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
That is totally creating fake jobs. Jobs that exist for no reason. Why should a company pay to lease cars it doesn't need? It could simply pay out mileage or some other small compensation that costs a ton less than leasing vehicles.
The company would make more profit, hopefully invest that back into growing the company more and creating a good cycle of growth.
No, the company would simply pay more taxes and instead of letting employees have better conditions, only the government benefits.
@JaredBusch missed the whole point of why cars were added - it was for salary position, i.e. the company having to pay less payroll taxes while 'paying' the employees more through the benefit of the lease being one of their benefits.
As mentioned above by me - some employees might want and be OK with this, while others would likely want the cash.
Here's another way to look at this.
In the US, larger companies provide healthcare coverage for their employees, this coverage is part of the employee salary package. There are tax benefits for the companies paying this.
But let's say an employee had their own health coverage - so they didn't want/need the company's supplied one - will the company give them the cash they would otherwise pay the insurance company? Some companies will, some won't.
I have a car. I'd want the cash thanks...
Same here. Company cars are great for company owners where it's just a tax free way to buy a car. For staff, it's a questionable value at best.
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@Dashrender said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
That's just more corruption - again the taxes are being used to drive this fake economy. If taxes were more normal/fair, then people would buy their own cars, driving the prices down, and more money to be spent in free enterprises.
That is not an option over there unfortunately. I'm talking about what was happening in given conditions, not about how to change the way the government works in a particular country. Moreover, I was unhappy enough with the way things were over there to have immigrated 9000km away.
The entire car leasing thing would have kept working, if the government didn't decide it's a taxable benefit, and raised the tax to the point it was cheaper to just buy a car (double the normal price and all)
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@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
That's a false comparison to make the corruption sound reasonable. The alternatives are not the taxes staying higher, but lowering evenly across the board.
Lowering taxes is not an option over there. One of the main painpoints that made me leave.
why is it not an option? What stops the government from lowing taxes?
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@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Dashrender reducing taxes is never an option there, unfortunately. I was paying 56% before I left.
That's not a realistic comparison, though. That's just highlighting what a terrible government it is and pointing out the corruption. In fact, it sounds like they are using the fake jobs of the car tax deal to hide a "tax ratchet" effect.
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@Dashrender said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
why is it not an option? What stops the government from lowing taxes?
Greed. Corruption. Insane military spending (the only viable reason actually, considering who their neighbours are). Messed up democratic process, causing well organized partizan parties to blackmail the entire country into giving them a free-for-all. I could go on and on
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@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Dashrender said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
But let's say an employee had their own health coverage - so they didn't want/need the company's supplied one - will the company give them the cash they would otherwise pay the insurance company? Some companies will, some won't.
Right, those "benefits" apply unevenly and are better for the companies, but worse for the employees. People in dual income families (generally the poorest parts of society) get hurt the most as they need the money more and are less able to leverage the benefits as the benefits are not individually tailored (normally.)
My wife's company compensation includes family coverage. Since I have my own coverage, she actually gets some cash back. I know the same is true for where I work, if it was better for me to be on my wife's insurance, my company would pay me the cash spent on my insurance coverage.
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@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Jimmy9008 said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
I have a car. I'd want the cash thanks...
Another data point - cars in the UK are dirt cheap. In Israel there is 100% import tax on a car, so anything that costs $50k will be $100k there, and that's before VAT, fees, markups etc
Also presumably far less needed. In the US a car is pretty important. In Tel Aviv, isn't there good public transportation for a large amount of the population? It's a very dense country by comparison.
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@Dashrender said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
But the insurance companies themselves offering lower prices to their customers has nothing to do with taxes.
And the fact that a company paying out a part of that group benefit is having that expense recognized as a tax deductible doesn't ring a bell then?
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@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Dashrender said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
why is it not an option? What stops the government from lowing taxes?
Greed. Corruption. Insane military spending (the only viable reason actually, considering who their neighbours are). Messed up democratic process, causing well organized partizan parties to blackmail the entire country into giving them a free-for-all. I could go on and on
So in other words - there is totally an option - they are just corrupt.
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@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
Higher pay retains people too, and better I'd argue. I'll take pay over a car any day, in fact, I'd rather not have a car at all.
Look at it as if these were health benefits. As a group, you get better individual terms from an insurance company. The same happened with car leases. Of course, if you prefer to go without, you can, but the cash difference is laughable compared to the cost of leasing the same car privately. In Israel, public transport is total crap, so pretty much everyone needs to have a car to get around. And cars are double the US price for the same model (100% import tax). So it was really worth it, while it lasted.
This is not really true. That CAN happen, but often doesn't. As an individual you often get lower costs than group policies. Partially because you can tailor to you, but also because companies are allowed to use healthcare benefits as a "profit center" and literally charge you more than the plan itself costs.
The healthcare system in the US is one of the worst examples of government corruption ever. It's so extreme, and so anti-citizenry. I wouldn't use it as a comparison to anything else. Nothing is that bad.
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@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
Also presumably far less needed. In the US a car is pretty important. In Tel Aviv, isn't there good public transportation for a large amount of the population? It's a very dense country by comparison.
The worst public transportation I've seen anywhere, except Cambodia. Maybe.
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@Dashrender said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Jimmy9008 said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Dashrender said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@JaredBusch said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
That is totally creating fake jobs. Jobs that exist for no reason. Why should a company pay to lease cars it doesn't need? It could simply pay out mileage or some other small compensation that costs a ton less than leasing vehicles.
The company would make more profit, hopefully invest that back into growing the company more and creating a good cycle of growth.
No, the company would simply pay more taxes and instead of letting employees have better conditions, only the government benefits.
@JaredBusch missed the whole point of why cars were added - it was for salary position, i.e. the company having to pay less payroll taxes while 'paying' the employees more through the benefit of the lease being one of their benefits.
As mentioned above by me - some employees might want and be OK with this, while others would likely want the cash.
Here's another way to look at this.
In the US, larger companies provide healthcare coverage for their employees, this coverage is part of the employee salary package. There are tax benefits for the companies paying this.
But let's say an employee had their own health coverage - so they didn't want/need the company's supplied one - will the company give them the cash they would otherwise pay the insurance company? Some companies will, some won't.
I have a car. I'd want the cash thanks...
See @dyasny situation was different - every company he worked at for 20 years offered the car as part of his compensation, so likely he didn't own one himself. So that changes things.
Which sucks as an employee, quit your job and... oh crap, no way to function.
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@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
Right, that's people getting paid for something that wouldn't be needed except for a corrupt tax dodge.
Are group benefits a corrupt tax dodge?
Not as a rule, but much of the time, absolutely. And one based on corruption.
Both a corporate tax dodge (not corruption, just working within the system), and massive government corruption, possibly the largest scale corruption in the world.
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@Dashrender said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
So in other words - there is totally an option - they are just corrupt.
Israel is an example of how democracy can be severely abused. This causes huge government spending that never reaches the general taxpaying population. Not having that spending will hurt the democratic process there.
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@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Dashrender said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
But the insurance companies themselves offering lower prices to their customers has nothing to do with taxes.
And the fact that a company paying out a part of that group benefit is having that expense recognized as a tax deductible doesn't ring a bell then?
Yeah - OK, it's likely a form of corruption itself - I'm trying to see if it's as bad as the car on was there?
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@Dashrender said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
Higher pay retains people too, and better I'd argue. I'll take pay over a car any day, in fact, I'd rather not have a car at all.
Look at it as if these were health benefits. As a group, you get better individual terms from an insurance company. The same happened with car leases. Of course, if you prefer to go without, you can, but the cash difference is laughable compared to the cost of leasing the same car privately. In Israel, public transport is total crap, so pretty much everyone needs to have a car to get around. And cars are double the US price for the same model (100% import tax). So it was really worth it, while it lasted.
That's just more corruption - again the taxes are being used to drive this fake economy. If taxes were more normal/fair, then people would buy their own cars, driving the prices down, and more money to be spent in free enterprises.
Exactly, the entire US healthcare system is a fake economy. Created by way more than just false tax incentives to line the pockets of those bribing government officials, it's literally keeping people's lives at risk to force them to do what tax incentives alone will not.
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@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
That's a false comparison to make the corruption sound reasonable. The alternatives are not the taxes staying higher, but lowering evenly across the board.
Lowering taxes is not an option over there. One of the main painpoints that made me leave.
People just won't vote for a good government?
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@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
This is not really true. That CAN happen, but often doesn't. As an individual you often get lower costs than group policies. Partially because you can tailor to you, but also because companies are allowed to use healthcare benefits as a "profit center" and literally charge you more than the plan itself costs.
The healthcare system in the US is one of the worst examples of government corruption ever. It's so extreme, and so anti-citizenry. I wouldn't use it as a comparison to anything else. Nothing is that bad.
Well, my health benefits in Canada were great, compared to the private offerings I got when I went freelance.
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@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
Government spending is not under the control of the citizens, whatever we all want to believe. I'm pretty sure your government doesn't give you an account of where each dollar you paid in taxes went.
They do not, but we recognize it as corruption.
