Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World
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@bnrstnr said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
Please explain to us how the disks get in a redundant array if not from the motherboard.
Software RAID does this. It did it before there was hardware RAID at all. Hardware RAID is the more recent type. Old, but more recent.
It's hard to know what needs to be explained, I'm not sure why you feel hardware is needed. But I'll attempt...
RAID is simply a form of drive interface abstraction, but that does certain things beyond the abstraction. So it is most similar to Logical Volume Management. LVM does not do RAID, but they both abstract in a similar way, consuming drives, presenting drives.
RAID is always in software, even when it is on dedicated hardware. So anything that a hardware RAID card can do, you can do without it as well. But people want hardware RAID for various reasons - easier moves, offloading CPU work, more RAM, special features from the implementation, ease of use, etc.
RAID in pure software is a part of every operating system in production use for the last few decades (Netware was the last one without it.) Windows NT had it in 1996 if not earlier. Linux by around the same era. AIX, Solaris, HP-UX, etc. all before Windows.
In fact, outside of the Windows world, hardware RAID is unheard of. NAS and SAN of all sizes do it in software. All big iron servers do it only in software. It is hardware that is the niche, not the norm.
So what happens is that you have a software driver on your OS (integrated or third party, doesn't matter) that grabs the drives, does it's RAID magic, and then presents it on to the storage subsystems above it as a single drive. It's not actually very complicated once you see it in action, it's pretty basic. Very simple code if just doing say RAID 0 or 1. That's what makes those so reliable, it's just so simple.
Then the storage above the RAID layer sees a single, new drive. The one made by the RAID system. And it treats that like the attached hardware and acts normally.
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@momurda said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
Sometimes there is an issue with the os seeing these onmobo raid devices as a single device.
Pretty common. And that is proof that it is FakeRAID in those cases. If the motherboard, or any hardware, was doing the RAID, this would be impossible.
If you can ever induce this scenario, it is proof of software RAID being used.
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@bnrstnr said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
I've done this, too, on a home computer. The RAID comes from somewhere, and it's nothing added by any other component other than the motherboard. It's not windows that does it, it's not the RAM, it's not the power supply... it comes from the motherboard, somehow.
This is where the FakeRAID comes in. And we talked about this higher in the thread. It does come from somewhere else, it comes from drivers that you add. It's easy enough if you have a real world example, to demonstrate it happening. It's running on the OS, in every case. It's always the same. What you are describing is exactly what @Obsolesce is, and it's exactly what we said to expect when looking at FakeRAID.
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@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@scottalanmiller said in IDE Raid- Is there a Benefit?:
Which is worth pointing out that 99.99% of motherboards don't have RAID, on desktops. And 98% don't have it on servers.
This is what I'm debating, this "fact" here. Not about the type of RAID.
Is it? Because you didn't provide anything to suggest that this was wrong, only repeated the information we told you you would get. So you basically repeated us back.
Then you claimed that you only cared if you got RAID, not where it came from and said, based on that, that the discussion was over.
You also said you didn't care if it was hardware or not. But now you say you are only caring if it is hardware.
You are flip flopping trying to make a point, but the point isn't clear. You didn't like the assertion that most motherboards don't have RAID (or that they all lie about it.) But you've provided nothing to the contrary. Lots of arguing, but no counter points.
It's like you missed everything we said, and are just continuing to restate what we said you'd see, but stating it as if we didn't expect you to see that, or that we didn't tell you ahead of time that you would.
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@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
It's not hardware raid. It's a piece of code that is operated within your motherboard (and by the CPU on your board).
The utility you've used on this board is controlled from the Motherboard, thus it's FakeRAID. It "does" RAID but it's such a bad idea to use it that you'd be better off adding a third disk and using proper SoftwareRAID for wherever you want your data to reside.
This isn't clear. There is nothing that operates "on the motherboard" with FakeRAID, nothing at all. It's Fake in that there is no hardware doing the RAID, but is presented as being such. It has nothing to do with being industry standard, and certainly doesn't run on the motherboard, that would require a separate processor, and in doing so, they'd not bother to fake it.
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@bnrstnr said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
It's not hardware raid. It's a piece of code that is operated within your motherboard (and by the CPU on your board).
So it DOES come from the motherboard?
No, he's confused. It absolutely does not.
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@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@bnrstnr said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
It's not hardware raid. It's a piece of code that is operated within your motherboard (and by the CPU on your board).
So it DOES come from the motherboard?
It has too, there is no where else for it to reside and run.
This is completely incorrect. Not only does it not have to, it cannot. There is no hardware on the board to do it, and we can trivially (and have so many times) proven that it is not. You cannot bypass the RAID if this were true, but you always can.
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@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
Are you getting the FakeRAID from the powersupply? No. From the motherboard? Yes.
So yes, 99% of motherboards DO have raid (even if it's FakeRAID, it's still RAID). This was my original point.
They absolutely do NOT have RAID. That is wrong. Find any board you like as an example and we can demonstrate it. This is trivial to show in the real world. There is no reason to use hypotheticals.
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@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
If you go back and read my posts, you'll see the type of RAID was never part of my point. That was what Scott was saying was my point, confusing everyone else including himself.
You said you didn't care where it came from, I'll go find the quote.
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@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
I don't care about hardware RAID, software RAID, or fakeRAID.
Right here. You said you didn't care if it came FROM the motherboard or not. You were just trying to say you got RAID in the end.
Now you are stating the opposite.
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@scottalanmiller said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@bnrstnr said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
It's not hardware raid. It's a piece of code that is operated within your motherboard (and by the CPU on your board).
So it DOES come from the motherboard?
No, he's confused. It absolutely does not.
How does it not?
If you remove the motherboard, you lose the RAID. The whole thing comes from the motherboard. The motherboard provides the fakeRAID, it's built into the motherboard. The RAID exists without the OS. You can confirm the RAID is there by hitting CTRL+R or whatever it is, and seeing that the RAID1 is there, active, working.
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@scottalanmiller said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
I don't care about hardware RAID, software RAID, or fakeRAID.
Right here. You said you didn't care if it came FROM the motherboard or not. You were just trying to say you got RAID in the end.
Now you are stating the opposite.
No, I said I don't care what type the RAID is...
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Scott, something has to process to "fakeRAID" components during the setup phase. The CPU is what is doing this. Not a dedicated CPU.
It is still FakeRAID, because (and in the above example) of seeing multiple disks once you go to install do you prove that the FakeRAID is actually fake.
The "run this raid program via CTRL + <something>" can't be run without some RAM and CPU. It's still Fake, but it is being run by the CPU on the motherboard.
It's still fake 100% though.
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@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
The thing is, FakeRAID is RAID... nobody gives a shit here what kind of RAID it is. Don't listen to Scott, the kind of RAID it was I never was debating. That was all stuff he was shoving in my mouth.
No one said it wasn't RAID, why do you keep bringing that up as if someone other than you thought that? What I stated, and what you are so passionate about, is that you want that RAID running in hardware and coming from your motherboard. You aren't okay with it being in software, hence why this thread started. Since there was never a hint that there wasn't RAID, only about where it might reside.
So clearly , everyone in this thread, mostly you because you were the one that took it from a casual comment that was true, to this huge discussion trying to prove it wrong, is because you give a huge shit about what kind it is. That's the sole purpose to you arguing this.
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@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
Scott, something has to process to "fakeRAID" components during the setup phase.
No, it doesn't. Why do you think it does?
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@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
It is still FakeRAID, because (and in the above example) of seeing multiple disks once you go to install do you prove that the FakeRAID is actually fake.
That proves it is not using any hardware; aka that it is software RAID. If that was pretending to be hardware, then it would prove that it was FakeRAID. FakeRAID being software RAID masquerading as hardware RAID to explicitly trick people who give a shit where the RAID runs. If someone wants RAID from the motherboard, then that means they care where it runs, and FakeRAID is designed to take advantage of that.
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@scottalanmiller said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
Scott, something has to process to "fakeRAID" components during the setup phase.
No, it doesn't. Why do you think it does?
I guess I have to question you on this, how do programs operate?
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@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@scottalanmiller said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@bnrstnr said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
It's not hardware raid. It's a piece of code that is operated within your motherboard (and by the CPU on your board).
So it DOES come from the motherboard?
No, he's confused. It absolutely does not.
How does it not?
If you remove the motherboard, you lose the RAID. The whole thing comes from the motherboard. The motherboard provides the fakeRAID, it's built into the motherboard. The RAID exists without the OS. You can confirm the RAID is there by hitting CTRL+R or whatever it is, and seeing that the RAID1 is there, active, working.
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@obsolesce said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
I have always known the difference. This was never about me not knowing the difference between hardware/software/fake RAID.
Regardless of what kind of RAID it is, you get it with your motherboard. That's what this was always about.
First you state that you know the difference. Then you state something that clearly says you don't see the difference. Your second statement negates the first. Motherboards that have RAID must be hardware, and you can't buy those on the market.
You are missing the entire concept that we are discussing.
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@scottalanmiller said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
@dustinb3403 said in Discovering FakeRAID in the Real World:
It is still FakeRAID, because (and in the above example) of seeing multiple disks once you go to install do you prove that the FakeRAID is actually fake.
That proves it is not using any hardware; aka that it is software RAID. If that was pretending to be hardware, then it would prove that it was FakeRAID. FakeRAID being software RAID masquerading as hardware RAID to explicitly trick people who give a shit where the RAID runs. If someone wants RAID from the motherboard, then that means they care where it runs, and FakeRAID is designed to take advantage of that.
Exactly, and that is my point. If I want hardware raid, I know I'm purchasing and installing a separate card(s) that has its own processor and ram (and ideally battery backup).
If I want software RAID I'm looking at solutions like MD RAID. Never am I going into a "CTRL + <something> menu with my disks connected directly to the motherboard* expecting Software or Hardware RAID.
