SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment
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The manager of a 25 people company was reccommended by an external consultant about moving from a two-nodes, local-storage r740 (very fast SAS ssd latest gen with more than enough capacity, fast cpu, tons of ram) VMware environment to a more complex SAN environment with two replicated SAN (EMC 300) and the aforemention servers… the first configuration is using Veeam replication between nodes and can adopt VMware vSAN or StarWind for a fraction of cost.
The two SAN configuration was justified with arguments like “that’s how the enterprises do” and “this will dramatically increase reliability and availability”.
What do you think about it?
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Ur........ What does the company do?
For just 25 people in an office i doubt they would need a SAN -
@francesco-provino said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
The two SAN configuration was justified with arguments like “that’s how the enterprises do” and “this will dramatically increase reliability and availability”.
What do you think about it?
Yeah they "might" do, but they also have the ££££ to do so :), also the consultant will be getting ££££ for selling it
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@francesco-provino said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
The manager of a 25 people company was reccommended by an external consultant about moving from a two-nodes, local-storage r740 (very fast SAS ssd latest gen with more than enough capacity, fast cpu, tons of ram) VMware environment
Is is what they got now, or is that an option? If it's what they got now and there's plenty of growth in it, why are they looking at replacements?
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@hobbit666 said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
@francesco-provino said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
The manager of a 25 people company was reccommended by an external consultant about moving from a two-nodes, local-storage r740 (very fast SAS ssd latest gen with more than enough capacity, fast cpu, tons of ram) VMware environment
Is is what they got now, or is that an option? If it's what they got now and there's plenty of growth in it, why are they looking at replacements?
This is what they already have, in production. I forgot, 2x14 cores CPUs per machine.
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@francesco-provino Why are they looking at changing?
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@hobbit666 said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
@francesco-provino Why are they looking at changing?
Because of a licensing problem that took the ERP down after a CPU failure in a host. The license of a plugin was binded to a physical CPU. We are migrating away from this software in months, so it should not be an issue anymore.
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Be careful of trying brownfield VMware vSAN. The vSAN HCL is something you must adhere to when choosing hardware to use to set yourself up for success (i.e. controller is super important - look at the HBA330 instead of a PERC, need to choose the proper drives for cache and capacity, etc.).
So if you do roll with VMware vSAN or use Starwind, I would still look at a DR cluster. You can do a 2-node vSAN cluster but need a witness running somewhere else.
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In the end, it is about what can help your business meet its RPO and RTO. That is going to determine the budget.
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@francesco-provino said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
The two SAN configuration was justified with arguments like “that’s how the enterprises do” and “this will dramatically increase reliability and availability”.
Obviously you fire that VAR and ban them from talking to them. It's a scam, it's the scam. This is not how enterprises do it, it's how they did it. And it was never how enterprises did it for this kind of workload, it's how they did it for different workloads.
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The salesman is trying to pull the "absolute answer con." In doing this, he takes the answer that someone got yesterday for their needs and pretends that they would have gotten the same answer if they were you, today.
If we were talking transportation, it would be like trying to convince a teenager today riding a bicycle into town that only idiots right bicycles and that all big business tycoons ride in horse drawn carriages.
This logic is based on... once upon a time when factors were different (different availability or horses, roads weren't smooth, bicycle tires were crap) that everyone used horses because it is what they had, and business people needed to stay dry was were pulled in carriages. The factors have changed, as have the answers. Horses aren't applicable to anyone today, and business people no longer use horse or carriages. Even as an individual in the 1850s, you'd likely have walked or ridden a horse, not had a carriage just for you.
So he's using two axis of trickery here, and really thinks the managers he is talking to are idiots.
What really matters from the enterprise standpoint is....
Good enterprises evaluate their needs and use the right technology to meet those needs. So what the salesman here is trying to suggest is, in fact, the exact opposite of what an enterprise would do. He's not only suggesting a final answer that is absurd and obviously wrong. He's also suggesting it based on trying to trick the managers into doing something emotional instead of logical - the opposite of enterprise.
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@francesco-provino said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
@hobbit666 said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
@francesco-provino Why are they looking at changing?
Because of a licensing problem that took the ERP down after a CPU failure in a host. The license of a plugin was binded to a physical CPU. We are migrating away from this software in months, so it should not be an issue anymore.
How did that lead to this?
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@hobbit666 said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
Ur........ What does the company do?
For just 25 people in an office i doubt they would need a SANThose aren't factors for SAN. SAN has one and only one factor for its benefit - scale in number of physical hosts. That is the singular environmental factor that leads to choosing it (hence why giant enterprises often end up using it and SMBs would never based on the same enterprise logic.)
It then requires prioritizing cost savings of storage at scale over reliability, which many enterprises do because they understand that high availability is just silly for the majority of workloads.
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@scottalanmiller said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
@francesco-provino said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
@hobbit666 said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
@francesco-provino Why are they looking at changing?
Because of a licensing problem that took the ERP down after a CPU failure in a host. The license of a plugin was binded to a physical CPU. We are migrating away from this software in months, so it should not be an issue anymore.
How did that lead to this?
Sales person.
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@scottalanmiller said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
@francesco-provino said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
@hobbit666 said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
@francesco-provino Why are they looking at changing?
Because of a licensing problem that took the ERP down after a CPU failure in a host. The license of a plugin was binded to a physical CPU. We are migrating away from this software in months, so it should not be an issue anymore.
How did that lead to this?
How would this new system resolve this issue either way? Wouldn't it still be CPU locked to a single host?
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@jaredbusch said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
@scottalanmiller said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
@francesco-provino said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
@hobbit666 said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
@francesco-provino Why are they looking at changing?
Because of a licensing problem that took the ERP down after a CPU failure in a host. The license of a plugin was binded to a physical CPU. We are migrating away from this software in months, so it should not be an issue anymore.
How did that lead to this?
Sales person.
What about this scenario made management fall to pieces and bring in a sales person for guidance, though? How did a license issue lead to a failure in management processes?
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@coliver said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
@scottalanmiller said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
@francesco-provino said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
@hobbit666 said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
@francesco-provino Why are they looking at changing?
Because of a licensing problem that took the ERP down after a CPU failure in a host. The license of a plugin was binded to a physical CPU. We are migrating away from this software in months, so it should not be an issue anymore.
How did that lead to this?
How would this new system resolve this issue either way? Wouldn't it still be CPU locked to a single host?
Exactly. Sounds like a cascade of failures. Licensing issue leads to disconnect management failure. Leads to sales trickery.
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@networknerd said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
Be careful of trying brownfield VMware vSAN. The vSAN HCL is something you must adhere to when choosing hardware to use to set yourself up for success (i.e. controller is super important - look at the HBA330 instead of a PERC, need to choose the proper drives for cache and capacity, etc.).
So if you do roll with VMware vSAN or use Starwind, I would still look at a DR cluster. You can do a 2-node vSAN cluster but need a witness running somewhere else.
Thanks, this is a very useful observation.
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@scottalanmiller said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
The salesman is trying to pull the "absolute answer con." In doing this, he takes the answer that someone got yesterday for their needs and pretends that they would have gotten the same answer if they were you, today.
If we were talking transportation, it would be like trying to convince a teenager today riding a bicycle into town that only idiots right bicycles and that all big business tycoons ride in horse drawn carriages.
This logic is based on... once upon a time when factors were different (different availability or horses, roads weren't smooth, bicycle tires were crap) that everyone used horses because it is what they had, and business people needed to stay dry was were pulled in carriages. The factors have changed, as have the answers. Horses aren't applicable to anyone today, and business people no longer use horse or carriages. Even as an individual in the 1850s, you'd likely have walked or ridden a horse, not had a carriage just for you.
So he's using two axis of trickery here, and really thinks the managers he is talking to are idiots.
What really matters from the enterprise standpoint is....
Good enterprises evaluate their needs and use the right technology to meet those needs. So what the salesman here is trying to suggest is, in fact, the exact opposite of what an enterprise would do. He's not only suggesting a final answer that is absurd and obviously wrong. He's also suggesting it based on trying to trick the managers into doing something emotional instead of logical - the opposite of enterprise.
I've already pointed out that. The reply was that vSAN is a new/untested stuff, and they prefer to stick with a trusted route.
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@coliver said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
@scottalanmiller said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
@francesco-provino said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
@hobbit666 said in SAN vs vSAN in a brownfield environment:
@francesco-provino Why are they looking at changing?
Because of a licensing problem that took the ERP down after a CPU failure in a host. The license of a plugin was binded to a physical CPU. We are migrating away from this software in months, so it should not be an issue anymore.
How did that lead to this?
How would this new system resolve this issue either way? Wouldn't it still be CPU locked to a single host?
Exactly what I tried to point out.
