Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD
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@scottalanmiller So he's not at all involved in the front office decisions of the team that take time away from CEO of Ubiquiti? I'm not saying a man can't spend his time on other endeavors (Elon Musk) I'm just saying for a young company like UBNT many investors would likely like to see him focusing more of his time on the company he's trying to grow.
Yes I'm aware he doesn't actually develop the products himself, but he's also not kicked back in his chair in the corner office strumming a guitar all day. The man is overseeing a $4.5 billion dollar company. If I'm an investor, I'd like to see him more focused on UBNT than the Grizzlies. That's my personal preference and I've seen others who have shared this same sentiment but that's to each investor's choosing.
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@storageninja Is Mark Cuban CEO of a young, public company that's in full growth mode? He may be, I don't know. It seems to me like he's most focused on the Mavs these days and his other business ventures are side projects/investments. Not minimizing his other investments, it just seems like the Mavs is where most of his attention goes. I don't follow every Mark Cuban move though so I could be wrong here.
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@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
@storageninja Is Mark Cuban CEO of a young, public company that's in full growth mode? He may be, I don't know. It seems to me like he's most focused on the Mavs these days and his other business ventures are side projects/investments. Not minimizing his other investments, it just seems like the Mavs is where most of his attention goes. I don't follow every Mark Cuban move though so I could be wrong here.
I would have said the opposite, he seems awfully focused everywhere else. It's the public that knows he owns the Mavs and focuses there.
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@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
Yes I'm aware he doesn't actually develop the products himself, but he's also not kicked back in his chair in the corner office strumming a guitar all day. The man is overseeing a $4.5 billion dollar company. If I'm an investor, I'd like to see him more focused on UBNT than the Grizzlies. That's my personal preference and I've seen others who have shared this same sentiment but that's to each investor's choosing.
As an investor, all I care about are his results, not how he does them.
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@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
@scottalanmiller So he's not at all involved in the front office decisions of the team that take time away from CEO of Ubiquiti? I'm not saying a man can't spend his time on other endeavors (Elon Musk) I'm just saying for a young company like UBNT many investors would likely like to see him focusing more of his time on the company he's trying to grow.
Is he not focused? Where did that idea come from?
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@scottalanmiller Well I referenced Elon Musk, but even Jeff Bezos at Amazon is heavily involved in other side gigs. Nothing wrong with that. I don't know enough about Robert Pera to know if he's the kind of guy who can handle multiple items like this without something suffering or not. Does he have the right people in place? With Ubiquiti, he may be doing fantastic as a CEO and in time this will be a silly suggestion. If he stays CEO and in 5 years the company has grown at a market-beating multiple, then he'll have "earned" that right by many investors that he can juggle multiple tasks or businesses. I don't think it's unfair though for a company this young to ask a CEO to give as much devotion as possible though.
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@scottalanmiller said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
@scottalanmiller So he's not at all involved in the front office decisions of the team that take time away from CEO of Ubiquiti? I'm not saying a man can't spend his time on other endeavors (Elon Musk) I'm just saying for a young company like UBNT many investors would likely like to see him focusing more of his time on the company he's trying to grow.
Is he not focused? Where did that idea come from?
"Would like to see him focusing more" doesn't equate to "not focused", so that idea came from your misinterpretation of what I said. I don't know how focused the guy is. Never met him. Couldn't have even told you who the CEO of UBNT was before all this came out. I've simply thrown around a few thoughts that I've read elsewhere and have somehow found myself defending them, even though I don't even necessarily know that I agree with them. I just wanted to get some conversation going about the topic. I personally am not an investor of the company (Yet) short or long, but would likely consider going long depending on what I see moving forward. I'm a fan of their products, but good products doesn't always equate to successful, profitable business for investors.
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@scottalanmiller said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
I would have said the opposite, he seems awfully focused everywhere else. It's the public that knows he owns the Mavs and focuses there.
Honestly, I forget he owns the mavs. he's got 9 movies, dozens of television appearances (as well as a show) and has sold several tech companies (one Caching one to Akamai, Broadcast.com, something else to AOL).
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Keep in mind UBNT is a 12 year old company. It's not a young company, it's well established. These are experienced people. If investors start making harsh demands without considering the value of the people making the magic happen, those peoplewill cash out and leave the investors to figure stuff out on their own.
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@scottalanmiller said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
Keep in mind UBNT is a 12 year old company. It's not a young company, it's well established. These are experienced people. If investors start making harsh demands without considering the value of the people making the magic happen, those peoplewill cash out and leave the investors to figure stuff out on their own.
Sorry when I say "young company" I'm referring to their public life, which has been around 6 years. They've done excellent in those 6 years as well outpacing the market by a nice-sized amount. It's easy to see where they have more room to grow though so people/potential investors just want to be sure he's still got his eyes on the prize.
What harsh demands are you referring to? I'm not sure I've heard of any. But I agree in theory. As an investor, if I didn't think he was up to snuff I just wouldn't buy in. I'm not looking to get involved in who's the CEO, who's doing this and that, I just want to park my money and watch it grow. Let the company keep doing what it was doing when I invested and reap the benefits.
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@storageninja said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
@scottalanmiller said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
I would have said the opposite, he seems awfully focused everywhere else. It's the public that knows he owns the Mavs and focuses there.
Honestly, I forget he owns the mavs. he's got 9 movies, dozens of television appearances (as well as a show) and has sold several tech companies (one Caching one to Akamai, Broadcast.com, something else to AOL).
He's SOLD tech companies, appears on television, and I'm not sure what you mean by 9 movies. He's in 9 movies or he owns a production company? Either way, I guess that was my point is that from what I perceive, the Mavs are his baby and he treats them as such. It's hard to find any interviews where they aren't mentioned or he isn't wearing their gear. On Shark Tank, any time there's a new physical fitness related offering, he's always talking about how it can benefit his players.
Now I'm not saying Mark Cuban couldn't own the Mavs AND be CEO of a $5 billion company so don't misunderstand me. I'm just making the comparison for comparison's sake based on where these two individuals are today in their careers.
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I really hate when I see these forums on here get so lost in semantics, so let me just conclude by saying as of today, I don't believe Citron has much evidence to back their claims. Unfortunately, we live in a "guilty until proven innocent" world and so that could hurt them temporarily while the dust settles.
I will be watching UBNT moving forward as a potential investor because I do really like their products and as their portfolio continues to evolve and grow, they could be more of a household name like Cisco, HP, and others not just us tech guys.
I will also be watching to see how Pera handles all the pressure coming to him from this report. So far, I don't think he's handled it fantastically, but he hasn't bombed either. It's a learning and growing experience for the company. People are always coming for you whether competitively or other reasons, so a strong CEO has to be able to handle these types of things.
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@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
@scottalanmiller said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
Keep in mind UBNT is a 12 year old company. It's not a young company, it's well established. These are experienced people. If investors start making harsh demands without considering the value of the people making the magic happen, those peoplewill cash out and leave the investors to figure stuff out on their own.
Sorry when I say "young company" I'm referring to their public life, which has been around 6 years. They've done excellent in those 6 years as well outpacing the market by a nice-sized amount. It's easy to see where they have more room to grow though so people/potential investors just want to be sure he's still got his eyes on the prize.
What harsh demands are you referring to? I'm not sure I've heard of any. But I agree in theory. As an investor, if I didn't think he was up to snuff I just wouldn't buy in. I'm not looking to get involved in who's the CEO, who's doing this and that, I just want to park my money and watch it grow. Let the company keep doing what it was doing when I invested and reap the benefits.
Harsh demands like interfering with his personal investment life. If he was using the time to go jogging, mountain climbing, watch movies, go on vacation, would people complain? What if he invested in Exxon, hotels or restaurnants, would people complain? Of course not. But if he watches sports or invests in sports, we get investors claiming he might not be focused? That's overreach that will make people start reconsidering representing the interests of those investors.
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@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
I really hate when I see these forums on here get so lost in semantics, so let me just conclude by saying as of today, I don't believe Citron has much evidence to back their claims. Unfortunately, we live in a "guilty until proven innocent" world and so that could hurt them temporarily while the dust settles.
Right, and until Citron is shown to be legit, he looks like a scammer. He's running a scam news business, trying to create panic for his own purposes, and his site looks like something from a Facebook ad. We've got a clear scammer here, Citron has a lot to prove before we even look at what he's claiming.
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@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
I will also be watching to see how Pera handles all the pressure coming to him from this report.
Is there any pressure? I don't see any, that's the difference. I see no more pressure on him than I've put on Citron. How is Citron handling it? Not well. But what does that mean?
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@scottalanmiller said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
@scottalanmiller said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
Keep in mind UBNT is a 12 year old company. It's not a young company, it's well established. These are experienced people. If investors start making harsh demands without considering the value of the people making the magic happen, those peoplewill cash out and leave the investors to figure stuff out on their own.
Sorry when I say "young company" I'm referring to their public life, which has been around 6 years. They've done excellent in those 6 years as well outpacing the market by a nice-sized amount. It's easy to see where they have more room to grow though so people/potential investors just want to be sure he's still got his eyes on the prize.
What harsh demands are you referring to? I'm not sure I've heard of any. But I agree in theory. As an investor, if I didn't think he was up to snuff I just wouldn't buy in. I'm not looking to get involved in who's the CEO, who's doing this and that, I just want to park my money and watch it grow. Let the company keep doing what it was doing when I invested and reap the benefits.
Harsh demands like interfering with his personal investment life. If he was using the time to go jogging, mountain climbing, watch movies, go on vacation, would people complain? What if he invested in Exxon, hotels or restaurnants, would people complain? Of course not. But if he watches sports or invests in sports, we get investors claiming he might not be focused? That's overreach that will make people start reconsidering representing the interests of those investors.
There's a difference in "investing" where you're giving Exxon money, letting other people run it, and getting a check as a return based the size of your investment vs "investing" in a company that you now oversee and are responsible for. I don't care that it's a sports team, it's a $250 million - $1 billion dollar company. If he's just buying a majority stake and sitting back while others are running it and drawing a check, that's one thing. If he's going to be actively involved much like Mark Cuban is, an argument could at least be made that his splitting time is not in the best interest of Ubiquiti the company and its shareholders, and that maybe someone else should take the reins. Buying and running another company isn't comparable to jogging, mountain climbing, vacationing, or any of the other examples you used.
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@scottalanmiller said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
I really hate when I see these forums on here get so lost in semantics, so let me just conclude by saying as of today, I don't believe Citron has much evidence to back their claims. Unfortunately, we live in a "guilty until proven innocent" world and so that could hurt them temporarily while the dust settles.
Right, and until Citron is shown to be legit, he looks like a scammer. He's running a scam news business, trying to create panic for his own purposes, and his site looks like something from a Facebook ad. We've got a clear scammer here, Citron has a lot to prove before we even look at what he's claiming.
Although Citron hasn't been 100% correct in their claims, they have been accurate with a few, which lends even the slightest bit of attention. I'm careful not to use the word credibility, but attention. Investors and analysts alike have taken the evidence (or lack thereof) Citron presented, done their own analysis, and made their conclusion. Some may have sold, and some may have doubled down on UBNT. You yourself have stated you're not buying it for a second. Good for you. Others have been a little more cautious and looked into it. Big deal. Nothing wrong with some extra due diligence to protect your investment.
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@scottalanmiller said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
I will also be watching to see how Pera handles all the pressure coming to him from this report.
Is there any pressure? I don't see any, that's the difference. I see no more pressure on him than I've put on Citron. How is Citron handling it? Not well. But what does that mean?
I say pressure because I've seen many analysts come out and seek an explanation or defense from Pera on the allegations. Again, we live in a "guilty until proven innocent" culture, so although unfair, it's something he's had to deal with. They held an investor day to address some of the allegations and what I took away from the analysis of it was that he didn't knock the accusations out of the water. When you're company is being accused very publicly as a fraud and the accuser is calling you out on CNBC, every major investing publication is talking about it, and you're the CEO of said public company, there's some "pressure" there as you have to protect the company image.
Citron, on the other hand, has gotten more attention and is now trying to capitalize by shorting another popular company Spotify. In the near term, they win on publicity that it brings them. I believe long term, they'll lose and be seen as you say, a scam and boy who cried wolf.
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@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
I say pressure because I've seen many analysts come out and seek an explanation or defense from Pera on the allegations.
But, any REAL analysts? Anyone is free to claim to be an analysit. It means nothing. I've seen nothing about this. I feel like there is no pressure, not real world pressure. Analysts don't matter, short sellers don't matter. It's just yahoos trying to get hits for their blogs or whatever.
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@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
Citron, on the other hand, has gotten more attention and is now trying to capitalize by shorting another popular company Spotify. In the near term, they win on publicity that it brings them. I believe long term, they'll lose and be seen as you say, a scam and boy who cried wolf.
No, America doesn't work that way. No one remembers you long enough to point out that it was a scam. It's clearly a scam, look at his site, there's no question at all. He's not legit in any way. His audience isn't people who can afford to invest, it's people just looking to make noise.
