Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers
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@dashrender said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@shuey said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@coliver said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
Any reason to need 2U? Just the drive configuration? Or was there something else?
Main reason is storage. We need at least 18TB usable, and we want it in the 3.5" form factor.
Why does storage form factor matter?
How do you do what he needs with 2.5"?
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@dashrender said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@shuey said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@dashrender said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
OK, so it's not that you care about form factor, it's that you care about cost.
How 'bout we say that I "care about form factor because of cost..." ?
That's not a reason to care about the form factor.
Basically what I was getting at was you only care about cost/performance. As such dropping the stated need for LFF keeps your options more open. As noted you will likely end up with LFF drives because price/performance are at an acceptable level compared to other options.
Stipulating LFF does nothing but limit options needlessly.
Right and because of cost/performance nothing but 3.5" drives can be considered.
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@dashrender said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@shuey said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@dustinb3403 said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
Well I would agree, you have to chose the literal best fiscally viable option that meets the requirements. If LFF drives come in cheaper, even by a little, while meeting every other requirement (IOPS) then what does it matter that the drives aren't SFF?
It's cheaper and performs the same or better. If it cost the same and performed worse than you would have something to stand on.
Yeah, the difference in price was literally thousands of dollars when we spec'd out a same model server with 2.5" drives vs 3.5" drives (especially since the biggest drive they offer in the 2.5" size is 2TB - it takes a lot more of 'em to reach 18TB of usable space).
There is a huge difference other than just cost between these as well - IOPs. of course at these prices you need to compare the price of SFF in RAID 10 vs SSD in RAID 5.
Right and 3.5" drives have better IOPS than their 2.5" partners. So you get more capacity AND faster drives (just barely) with the larger form factor.
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@tim_g said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
Looks like you're stuck trying to find a 520 then... or you'll have to spend the extra beans on a 720 if you can't find one.
That's a lot of storage, and I agree trying to get that in 2.5" form factor is hard.
Or move to SuperMicro.
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@scottalanmiller said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@tim_g said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
Looks like you're stuck trying to find a 520 then... or you'll have to spend the extra beans on a 720 if you can't find one.
That's a lot of storage, and I agree trying to get that in 2.5" form factor is hard.
Or move to SuperMicro.
Are HPs off the list now?
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@dashrender said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@scottalanmiller said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@tim_g said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
Looks like you're stuck trying to find a 520 then... or you'll have to spend the extra beans on a 720 if you can't find one.
That's a lot of storage, and I agree trying to get that in 2.5" form factor is hard.
Or move to SuperMicro.
Are HPs off the list now?
Just not cost effective for storage. Haven't been for generations. Dell R720, R720xd, SuperMicro and Huawei are about the only affordable chassis for storage systems.
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@scottalanmiller said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@shuey said:
@dashrender LOL, that's an upgrade for us! We're still running Server 2008 R2 on almost every server in our fleet!
Might be an upgrade, but why deploy anything new that isn't current? Why take the time and effort to deploy old software?
Because we still have keys for 2008 R2. It's one more thing that the bean counters can avoid spending money on (and that's not MY choice by the way...).
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@shuey said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@scottalanmiller said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@shuey said:
@dashrender LOL, that's an upgrade for us! We're still running Server 2008 R2 on almost every server in our fleet!
Might be an upgrade, but why deploy anything new that isn't current? Why take the time and effort to deploy old software?
Because we still have keys for 2008 R2. It's one more thing that the bean counters can avoid spending money on (and that's not MY choice by the way...).
Start reminding those bean guys that 2008 R2 gets no more support/updates as of 2020
https://i.imgur.com/Mh8jlYV.png -
@shuey said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@scottalanmiller said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@shuey said:
@dashrender LOL, that's an upgrade for us! We're still running Server 2008 R2 on almost every server in our fleet!
Might be an upgrade, but why deploy anything new that isn't current? Why take the time and effort to deploy old software?
Because we still have keys for 2008 R2. It's one more thing that the bean counters can avoid spending money on (and that's not MY choice by the way...).
How does Windows even get into an environment like that? The logic that keeps you on old Windows should be the same logic that immediately takes Windows out of the equation.
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@dashrender said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@shuey said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@scottalanmiller said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@shuey said:
@dashrender LOL, that's an upgrade for us! We're still running Server 2008 R2 on almost every server in our fleet!
Might be an upgrade, but why deploy anything new that isn't current? Why take the time and effort to deploy old software?
Because we still have keys for 2008 R2. It's one more thing that the bean counters can avoid spending money on (and that's not MY choice by the way...).
Start reminding those bean guys that 2008 R2 gets no more support/updates as of 2020
https://i.imgur.com/Mh8jlYV.pngBean counters don't care about functionality or support. That's why bean counters should never be in the business decision line. They are looking at cost and are trained to look at cost. They don't know what it is for or what matters.
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@scottalanmiller said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
Bean counters don't care about functionality or support. That's why bean counters should never be in the business decision line. They are looking at cost and are trained to look at cost. They don't know what it is for or what matters.
So how are these people actually good for business then?
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@dashrender said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@scottalanmiller said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
Bean counters don't care about functionality or support. That's why bean counters should never be in the business decision line. They are looking at cost and are trained to look at cost. They don't know what it is for or what matters.
So how are these people actually good for business then?
A true bean counters job is to do bookkeeping (that's what a bean counter is) and report numbers to the decision makers, not be decision makers. Think of them like a calculator. Very handy to have, but you'd never have a calculator make your decisions.
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@scottalanmiller said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@dashrender said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@scottalanmiller said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
Bean counters don't care about functionality or support. That's why bean counters should never be in the business decision line. They are looking at cost and are trained to look at cost. They don't know what it is for or what matters.
So how are these people actually good for business then?
A true bean counters job is to do bookkeeping (that's what a bean counter is) and report numbers to the decision makers, not be decision makers. Think of them like a calculator. Very handy to have, but you'd never have a calculator make your decisions.
Aww - we have one of those.. and they are constantly trying to inject themselves into the business decision making process.
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@dashrender said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@scottalanmiller said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@dashrender said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@scottalanmiller said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
Bean counters don't care about functionality or support. That's why bean counters should never be in the business decision line. They are looking at cost and are trained to look at cost. They don't know what it is for or what matters.
So how are these people actually good for business then?
A true bean counters job is to do bookkeeping (that's what a bean counter is) and report numbers to the decision makers, not be decision makers. Think of them like a calculator. Very handy to have, but you'd never have a calculator make your decisions.
Aww - we have one of those.. and they are constantly trying to inject themselves into the business decision making process.
That's a weird thing for them to be trying to do. Maybe they don't like the career that they picked? Hopefully no one lets them.
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@scottalanmiller said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
A true bean counters job is to do bookkeeping (that's what a bean counter is) and report numbers to the decision makers, not be decision makers. Think of them like a calculator. Very handy to have, but you'd never have a calculator make your decisions.
Our beans counters are ALSO the decision makers...
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@shuey said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@scottalanmiller said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
A true bean counters job is to do bookkeeping (that's what a bean counter is) and report numbers to the decision makers, not be decision makers. Think of them like a calculator. Very handy to have, but you'd never have a calculator make your decisions.
Our beans counters are ALSO the decision makers...
Who are they specifically? The owners? The accountants? Who approves your purchases? Do they give you real reasons why you can't buy what you recommend? Have you asked them why you have a job if they aren't going to listen and follow your recommendations? (neither have I
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@dashrender said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
@jimmy9008 said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
Get the best price you can, within reasonable effort - it's a fair expectation from most companies.
Scott bills out at $250+/hr. If it takes him 2 hours to get a quote from Dell they are already $500 in the whole compared to xByte (where he can get a quote from their website in mins).
But it's really hard to believe that you could get an equal price, let alone superior price directly from Dell than you could from xByte, but in the interest of fairness, please post your quote so we can see them side by side.
I have my Dell price, but the xByte quote is gone. I don't keep 'losing' quotes. I asked xByte for a new quote earlier this week so we can compare. They couldn't match the same kit anymore, so quoted based on 'as close as they could get'. This order was a while back, so I guess they cant get the same kit anymore?
Anyway, this is based on the 'closest kit xByte could do to the T630s', which happens to be R730xd's according to them (which they said should cost less than the T630's anyway). That's based on their advice in the week. So, converted to GBP before VAT, xByte come in at £18,984.89 per box. That's £75,939.56 for the 4 servers. xByte say they cannot sell 2016 Datacenter in the UK, so this is total price excluding any OS.
Dell come in at £17,261.56 per box ex VAT, and for the order of 4 servers comes to £69,046.24. This includes Windows Server 2016 Datacentre on each server too.
So, for £6,893.32 less spend, you get the same SSDs, RAM, Networking, and Cores as xByte... but with 2016 Datacentre OS on each box too...
What would 4 x datacenter be on volume licensing? A quick search says on VL for 2016 Datacenter is £764.99 per 2 core pack ex vat [though, could be looking at the wrong part]. But... based on that 32 packs (to license to total number of cores = 64) is £24,479.68 ex VAT. That, plus the hardware cost difference is £31,373 less ex vat- If you ordered through Dell... for entirely new kit, not 'like new'.
31k is worth a few emails to 'haggle' IMO.[Company info removed etc. The Dell order also contains a couple of switch too, so need to take that off the total etc.]
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@jimmy9008 said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
If you ordered through Dell... for entirely new kit, not 'like new'.
The value difference is zero. Both are new. That one is legally labeled new and one is not has no business value.
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Now that you are in the UK, that's huge and that's why xByte doesn't make sense. They have to ship there. In the US, the price difference is huge and we get so much more from xByte.
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@scottalanmiller said in Advice on building "storage servers" with two DL380 G7 servers:
Now that you are in the UK, that's huge and that's why xByte doesn't make sense. They have to ship there. In the US, the price difference is huge and we get so much more from xByte.
We need a flag on ML saying country of origin...
Well, US or UK, these are probably coming from China or something anyway. So, both have shipping costs.
Would be great to see a third quote for somebody US based for that exact same xByte quote above... Just to see how much extra we are being charge over here compared to you...
Still, over here that 30k or so adds up, so when I say it can make sense to go to Dell at certain times of the year, it's based on my knowledge of the UK market. Most of the year, that Dell quite would be much higher and xByte probably makes sense. But their end of quarters, for us at least, can be 30k less than xByte.
A month before that Dell quite, their price was around double. It's because it was close to their end of year and their sales want to nail targets.
