5G Cellular draft spec released
-
Adoption will probably take a very long time, too.
-
@MattSpeller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
That's a very low latency for wireless - I will be impressed if they do it
The rule of thumb is that wireless is actually less latent than wired. Remember the trading houses that bought and reactivated the old microwave relay towers just to knock latency off of the connection? They have a huge use case for a lower bandwidth (20Mb) but super low latency connection.
-
@travisdh1 said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@MattSpeller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
That's a very low latency for wireless - I will be impressed if they do it
The rule of thumb is that wireless is actually less latent than wired. Remember the trading houses that bought and reactivated the old microwave relay towers just to knock latency off of the connection? They have a huge use case for a lower bandwidth (20Mb) but super low latency connection.
I thought the microwave relays were purchased due to congestion and cost.
-
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@travisdh1 said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@MattSpeller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
That's a very low latency for wireless - I will be impressed if they do it
The rule of thumb is that wireless is actually less latent than wired. Remember the trading houses that bought and reactivated the old microwave relay towers just to knock latency off of the connection? They have a huge use case for a lower bandwidth (20Mb) but super low latency connection.
I thought the microwave relays were purchased due to congestion and cost.
They already had fiber connections between the same points, so I don't know how congestion would come into it. Cost maybe, I don't remember many more of the details.
-
@travisdh1 said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@MattSpeller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
That's a very low latency for wireless - I will be impressed if they do it
The rule of thumb is that wireless is actually less latent than wired. Remember the trading houses that bought and reactivated the old microwave relay towers just to knock latency off of the connection? They have a huge use case for a lower bandwidth (20Mb) but super low latency connection.
What trading houses did that? All serious ones are wired and have latency so ridiculously low that no microwave is going to touch it. Literally just getting up to the height of the towers alone is more wired connection than what they have to the trading floors.
-
@MattSpeller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
That's a very low latency for wireless - I will be impressed if they do it
Remember that is just the time from the phone to the tower, not the round trip anywhere as that is a spec of the end to end service. This is latency for a packet traversing the link only.
-
@travisdh1 said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@travisdh1 said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@MattSpeller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
That's a very low latency for wireless - I will be impressed if they do it
The rule of thumb is that wireless is actually less latent than wired. Remember the trading houses that bought and reactivated the old microwave relay towers just to knock latency off of the connection? They have a huge use case for a lower bandwidth (20Mb) but super low latency connection.
I thought the microwave relays were purchased due to congestion and cost.
They already had fiber connections between the same points, so I don't know how congestion would come into it. Cost maybe, I don't remember many more of the details.
Fiber connections that were shared. The European and US microwave systems were setup as a more direct route then the fiber would take. They were only a few ms faster generally but were able to cut off hundreds of miles. Trying to find the really good article that I read on this not too long ago.
-
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@travisdh1 said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@travisdh1 said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@MattSpeller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
That's a very low latency for wireless - I will be impressed if they do it
The rule of thumb is that wireless is actually less latent than wired. Remember the trading houses that bought and reactivated the old microwave relay towers just to knock latency off of the connection? They have a huge use case for a lower bandwidth (20Mb) but super low latency connection.
I thought the microwave relays were purchased due to congestion and cost.
They already had fiber connections between the same points, so I don't know how congestion would come into it. Cost maybe, I don't remember many more of the details.
Fiber connections that were shared. The European and US microwave systems were setup as a more direct route then the fiber would take. They were only a few ms faster generally but were able to cut off hundreds of miles. Trying to find the really good article that I read on this not too long ago.
FIber is not shared. They are direct point to point links, and only a few blocks long.
-
@scottalanmiller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@travisdh1 said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@travisdh1 said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@MattSpeller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
That's a very low latency for wireless - I will be impressed if they do it
The rule of thumb is that wireless is actually less latent than wired. Remember the trading houses that bought and reactivated the old microwave relay towers just to knock latency off of the connection? They have a huge use case for a lower bandwidth (20Mb) but super low latency connection.
I thought the microwave relays were purchased due to congestion and cost.
They already had fiber connections between the same points, so I don't know how congestion would come into it. Cost maybe, I don't remember many more of the details.
Fiber connections that were shared. The European and US microwave systems were setup as a more direct route then the fiber would take. They were only a few ms faster generally but were able to cut off hundreds of miles. Trying to find the really good article that I read on this not too long ago.
FIber is not shared. They are direct point to point links, and only a few blocks long.
The fiber infrastructure isn't shared between subscribers? I get that the FttH instances are very small and point-to-point but trunking would be shared between everyone in the neighborhood. I know fiber isn't like cable.
-
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@scottalanmiller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@travisdh1 said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@travisdh1 said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@MattSpeller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
That's a very low latency for wireless - I will be impressed if they do it
The rule of thumb is that wireless is actually less latent than wired. Remember the trading houses that bought and reactivated the old microwave relay towers just to knock latency off of the connection? They have a huge use case for a lower bandwidth (20Mb) but super low latency connection.
I thought the microwave relays were purchased due to congestion and cost.
They already had fiber connections between the same points, so I don't know how congestion would come into it. Cost maybe, I don't remember many more of the details.
Fiber connections that were shared. The European and US microwave systems were setup as a more direct route then the fiber would take. They were only a few ms faster generally but were able to cut off hundreds of miles. Trying to find the really good article that I read on this not too long ago.
FIber is not shared. They are direct point to point links, and only a few blocks long.
The fiber infrastructure isn't shared between subscribers? I get that the FttH instances are very small and point-to-point but trunking would be shared between everyone in the neighborhood. I know fiber isn't like cable.
No way. Don't know any bank dealing with stuff like that. Especially not between the trading floors and the exchange! Big banks don't even share their international fiber links.
-
@scottalanmiller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@scottalanmiller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@travisdh1 said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@travisdh1 said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@MattSpeller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
That's a very low latency for wireless - I will be impressed if they do it
The rule of thumb is that wireless is actually less latent than wired. Remember the trading houses that bought and reactivated the old microwave relay towers just to knock latency off of the connection? They have a huge use case for a lower bandwidth (20Mb) but super low latency connection.
I thought the microwave relays were purchased due to congestion and cost.
They already had fiber connections between the same points, so I don't know how congestion would come into it. Cost maybe, I don't remember many more of the details.
Fiber connections that were shared. The European and US microwave systems were setup as a more direct route then the fiber would take. They were only a few ms faster generally but were able to cut off hundreds of miles. Trying to find the really good article that I read on this not too long ago.
FIber is not shared. They are direct point to point links, and only a few blocks long.
The fiber infrastructure isn't shared between subscribers? I get that the FttH instances are very small and point-to-point but trunking would be shared between everyone in the neighborhood. I know fiber isn't like cable.
No way. Don't know any bank dealing with stuff like that. Especially not between the trading floors and the exchange! Big banks don't even share their international fiber links.
Oh, ok. I misunderstood your original point. I need to find the article for microwave networks and why they were still in place. I think the big reason was distance traveled was significantly shorter in Europe due to a direct line of sight compared to traditional fiber paths. Which made it slightly faster.
-
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@scottalanmiller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@scottalanmiller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@travisdh1 said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@travisdh1 said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@MattSpeller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
That's a very low latency for wireless - I will be impressed if they do it
The rule of thumb is that wireless is actually less latent than wired. Remember the trading houses that bought and reactivated the old microwave relay towers just to knock latency off of the connection? They have a huge use case for a lower bandwidth (20Mb) but super low latency connection.
I thought the microwave relays were purchased due to congestion and cost.
They already had fiber connections between the same points, so I don't know how congestion would come into it. Cost maybe, I don't remember many more of the details.
Fiber connections that were shared. The European and US microwave systems were setup as a more direct route then the fiber would take. They were only a few ms faster generally but were able to cut off hundreds of miles. Trying to find the really good article that I read on this not too long ago.
FIber is not shared. They are direct point to point links, and only a few blocks long.
The fiber infrastructure isn't shared between subscribers? I get that the FttH instances are very small and point-to-point but trunking would be shared between everyone in the neighborhood. I know fiber isn't like cable.
No way. Don't know any bank dealing with stuff like that. Especially not between the trading floors and the exchange! Big banks don't even share their international fiber links.
Oh, ok. I misunderstood your original point. I need to find the article for microwave networks and why they were still in place. I think the big reason was distance traveled was significantly shorter in Europe due to a direct line of sight compared to traditional fiber paths. Which made it slightly faster.
Might be true, but would only make sense for normal shared fiber lines, not point to point dedicated ones. The microwave would be point to point dedicated, so apples to oranges. Any wireless is decently fast with good gear, OTA is about the same speed and light in glass. But you have to get to towers, get up to the top of the tower, etc. So long haul, it can be great until you need hops to deal with curvature of the earth. Short haul, there is no way to make it all that fast compared to fiber.
-
@scottalanmiller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@travisdh1 said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@travisdh1 said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@MattSpeller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
That's a very low latency for wireless - I will be impressed if they do it
The rule of thumb is that wireless is actually less latent than wired. Remember the trading houses that bought and reactivated the old microwave relay towers just to knock latency off of the connection? They have a huge use case for a lower bandwidth (20Mb) but super low latency connection.
I thought the microwave relays were purchased due to congestion and cost.
They already had fiber connections between the same points, so I don't know how congestion would come into it. Cost maybe, I don't remember many more of the details.
Fiber connections that were shared. The European and US microwave systems were setup as a more direct route then the fiber would take. They were only a few ms faster generally but were able to cut off hundreds of miles. Trying to find the really good article that I read on this not too long ago.
FIber is not shared. They are direct point to point links, and only a few blocks long.
Uhm... I take it you don't know the details on the fiber to the home actually being deployed? I don't have time to go hunting for the articles, but this has been covered over at www.dslreports.com
I'll grant you that all other fiber is direct point to point links.
-
This was the article.
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/11/private-microwave-networks-financial-hft/
-
@travisdh1 said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@scottalanmiller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@travisdh1 said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@travisdh1 said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@MattSpeller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
That's a very low latency for wireless - I will be impressed if they do it
The rule of thumb is that wireless is actually less latent than wired. Remember the trading houses that bought and reactivated the old microwave relay towers just to knock latency off of the connection? They have a huge use case for a lower bandwidth (20Mb) but super low latency connection.
I thought the microwave relays were purchased due to congestion and cost.
They already had fiber connections between the same points, so I don't know how congestion would come into it. Cost maybe, I don't remember many more of the details.
Fiber connections that were shared. The European and US microwave systems were setup as a more direct route then the fiber would take. They were only a few ms faster generally but were able to cut off hundreds of miles. Trying to find the really good article that I read on this not too long ago.
FIber is not shared. They are direct point to point links, and only a few blocks long.
Uhm... I take it you don't know the details on the fiber to the home actually being deployed? I don't have time to go hunting for the articles, but this has been covered over at [www.dslreports.com](link url).
I'll grant you that all other fiber is direct point to point links.
How does fiber to the home relate to the New York Stock Exchange?
-
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
This was the article.
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/11/private-microwave-networks-financial-hft/
Yeah, that's Europe and dealing with long haul, over water. In trading, your trading floors are only hundreds of feet from the exchanges. Any single hop would be too many.
-
@scottalanmiller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
This was the article.
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/11/private-microwave-networks-financial-hft/
Yeah, that's Europe and dealing with long haul, over water. In trading, your trading floors are only hundreds of feet from the exchanges. Any single hop would be too many.
Got it. They also had done it from NY to Chicago but that looks like it may be defunct now.
-
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@scottalanmiller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
This was the article.
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/11/private-microwave-networks-financial-hft/
Yeah, that's Europe and dealing with long haul, over water. In trading, your trading floors are only hundreds of feet from the exchanges. Any single hop would be too many.
Got it. They also had done it from NY to Chicago but that looks like it may be defunct now.
That is likely still there. But it is the water in Europe that really makes a difference. I know that the biggest private haul in the world was redundant fiber between NY and London. Microwave in those situations would require balloons or something crazy with many hops.
-
@scottalanmiller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@scottalanmiller said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
@coliver said in 5G Cellular draft spec released:
This was the article.
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/11/private-microwave-networks-financial-hft/
Yeah, that's Europe and dealing with long haul, over water. In trading, your trading floors are only hundreds of feet from the exchanges. Any single hop would be too many.
Got it. They also had done it from NY to Chicago but that looks like it may be defunct now.
That is likely still there. But it is the water in Europe that really makes a difference. I know that the biggest private haul in the world was redundant fiber between NY and London. Microwave in those situations would require balloons or something crazy with many hops.
From the article.
I was told about one particularly wild idea, though: building a microwave network across the Atlantic. Theoretically you would place the microwave transceivers on tethered barges (like a small oil rig, essentially), or alternatively use tethered balloons. Like a terrestrial microwave network, the main advantage would be a massive reduction in latency. Currently it takes about 25 milliseconds for a squirt of light to travel the 3,100 miles from the west coast of England to the east side of Long Island, New York; via microwave, it would be closer to 16 milliseconds.
Seems far fetched for sure but would be interesting to see.
-
@coliver Not as far fetched as it seems. Biggest issues are the security of remote links.
