What Makes Something An Appliance
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@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
I'm starting to come to the conclusion that in computing, we can't come up with a meaningful enough definition for appliance. We can't draw a line because depending on your view, the line can go anywhere, and be pushed around so easily depending on who using said 'appliance'. Technically, all computing appliances like FreeNAS, KACE, etc, are only limiting their configuration by a username and password. Does that even count? At that point, the person who has the username and password is no longer limited and therefore is not an appliance. Then it's just a server.
FreeNAS doesn't even do that. Kace is one category of "thing", FreeNAS is another. Maybe both are appliances, or neither, but whatever they fall into, they at least fall into different sub-categories.
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@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@NerdyDad said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Maybe we are looking at this all wrong. Maybe we are using the term "server" incorrectly and "appliance" should be the appropriate term for what we are trying to define.
Server is merely a service that supports clients. Typically it is just built with other servers within an OS.
Maybe, that's definitely a thought. But okay, say we drop the term "server"... what do servers become?
To me, a server is merely a service that runs on a device (computer, router, whatever) that supports other devices connected on a network. For example DHCP is a service, DNS is a service, etc.
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Well and there is another thing to consider.... the thread that this came from, this question was triggered because a few people wanted to exclude "appliances" from their list of servers, even though they are the most "unlimited" form of appliances where there were no limits on usage at all, not license nor technology. So that was the trigger to "well we need a real definition then."
Maybe what we need is to accept that an appliance is a sub-category of server, not an alternative to a server. That might solve things.
But is a NetApp still a server? Argh.
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@NerdyDad said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@NerdyDad said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Maybe we are looking at this all wrong. Maybe we are using the term "server" incorrectly and "appliance" should be the appropriate term for what we are trying to define.
Server is merely a service that supports clients. Typically it is just built with other servers within an OS.
Maybe, that's definitely a thought. But okay, say we drop the term "server"... what do servers become?
To me, a server is merely a service that runs on a device (computer, router, whatever) that supports other devices connected on a network. For example DHCP is a service, DNS is a service, etc.
Right, that defines what a server is to you. But then how do you define the thing that we used to call a server? What will that become?
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@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@NerdyDad said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@NerdyDad said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Maybe we are looking at this all wrong. Maybe we are using the term "server" incorrectly and "appliance" should be the appropriate term for what we are trying to define.
Server is merely a service that supports clients. Typically it is just built with other servers within an OS.
Maybe, that's definitely a thought. But okay, say we drop the term "server"... what do servers become?
To me, a server is merely a service that runs on a device (computer, router, whatever) that supports other devices connected on a network. For example DHCP is a service, DNS is a service, etc.
Right, that defines what a server is to you. But then how do you define the thing that we used to call a server? What will that become?
I think that would depend as to whether it was physical or virtual. Physical = Host, Virtual = Guest Machine or VM.
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@NerdyDad said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@NerdyDad said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@NerdyDad said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Maybe we are looking at this all wrong. Maybe we are using the term "server" incorrectly and "appliance" should be the appropriate term for what we are trying to define.
Server is merely a service that supports clients. Typically it is just built with other servers within an OS.
Maybe, that's definitely a thought. But okay, say we drop the term "server"... what do servers become?
To me, a server is merely a service that runs on a device (computer, router, whatever) that supports other devices connected on a network. For example DHCP is a service, DNS is a service, etc.
Right, that defines what a server is to you. But then how do you define the thing that we used to call a server? What will that become?
I think that would depend as to whether it was physical or virtual. Physical = Host, Virtual = Guest Machine or VM.
But we normally want to refer to the two systems as a single thing in this case.
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@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
So FreeNAS is an appliance
I wouldn't class FreeNAS as an appliance. To my mind, an appliance is a hardware/software combination that's purpose-built to perform a single, specific task in a turnkey manner.
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I see an appliance as something that has been built in such a way that you <generally> don't want or need to know the inner workings of it. It would have a GUI (web or otherwise) for you to manage it from.
Something like the Scale systems comes to mind.
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@dafyre said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
I see an appliance as something that has been built in such a way that you <generally> don't want or need to know the inner workings of it. It would have a GUI (web or otherwise) for you to manage it from.
Something like the Scale systems comes to mind.
Isn't that the idea of Windows, though? LOL All kidding aside, that really is kind of an attempted definition of normal Windows. Many people chose it over Linux based on exactly that logic.
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@Brett-at-ioSafe said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
So FreeNAS is an appliance
I wouldn't class FreeNAS as an appliance. To my mind, an appliance is a hardware/software combination that's purpose-built to perform a single, specific task in a turnkey manner.
Hmmm, but why would hardware matter? Take TrueNAS, why is FreeNAS on that hardware an appliance but FreeNAS on identical hardware that you install yourself not an appliance?
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I think maybe we should stop looking at "appliance" as a noun, and start to consider it as an adjective instead.
We all know the definition of appliance in computing, and it's a loose definition. Sure, all servers are "computing devices with a specific function". I'm going to assume general function in this case, such as 'file server', 'backup server', 'computer management server' (KACE), etc...
As for the "limited configuration ability", this does not apply to any of them, unless you password it, or simply do not design a means to configure said device, therefore limiting ones ability.
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Yeah, so you are thinking that maybe appliance is a "state"? Like....
To me in IT, this server is a server. But to you in operations, this server is an appliance?
Like a Scale Cluster is a server to the Scale team, but an appliance to the customer. Whereas the FreePBX VM is a server to me, but an appliance to the operations team? It's a state based on perspective?
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@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Yeah, so you are thinking that maybe appliance is a "state"? Like....
To me in IT, this server is a server. But to you in operations, this server is an appliance?
Like a Scale Cluster is a server to the Scale team, but an appliance to the customer. Whereas the FreePBX VM is a server to me, but an appliance to the operations team? It's a state based on perspective?
Yes, exactly. Perspective makes a big difference. And so does one's permissions or abilities on the server. So I think it's a combination of perspective and what the end-user can do with it... whether the end-user is an IT admin, or operations user.
As with adjectives, they change in the same way for a specific thing... depending on ones perspective and abilities.
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I can get on board with that. Because under the hood, I think effectively nothing is an appliance anywhere. I mean somewhere there is actually something that must be, I just have no idea what it actually is.
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Appliance more of a pre-configured device?
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I think marketing has a lot to do with the definition. An appliance (to me) is a branded product that comes to the consumer in a box with a pretty picture and a logo on it. You pull it out, plug it in, and have minimal configuration (that you can get support to help you with) to integrate it into your network. You update it with the updates the manufacturer grants you, and you can configure what the manufacturer allows you access to.
I would absolutely put a Windows PC in this category. Remember when some PC's used to come with the "break this seal and void the warranty" sticker on the back of the case? The point is that it's not intended to be a user-serviced item. To me, that's the defining characteristic.
If you want to compare it to cars, I would say that adding seat covers and custom rims to your new factory-original car doesn't really count as "modified". Swap the motor out, put a turbo and an intercooler on it, aftermarket, and now you've properly modded your car.
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@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
I can get on board with that. Because under the hood, I think effectively nothing is an appliance anywhere. I mean somewhere there is actually something that must be, I just have no idea what it actually is.
I agree.
But I'm still not at a comfortable spot with this. I could easily do away with the word "appliance", and say server instead. What difference does it make whether I say 'KACE server' or 'KACE appliance'? What about "PBX appliance" or "PBX server"? Does it tell you anything different? Or does it designate a taste, or a perspective... like an adjective would?
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@black3dynamite said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Appliance more of a pre-configured device?
Kind of. But what about after you start using it?
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@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
I can get on board with that. Because under the hood, I think effectively nothing is an appliance anywhere. I mean somewhere there is actually something that must be, I just have no idea what it actually is.
I agree.
But I'm still not at a comfortable spot with this. I could easily do away with the word "appliance", and say server instead. What difference does it make whether I say 'KACE server' or 'KACE appliance'? What about "PBX appliance" or "PBX server"? Does it tell you anything different? Or does it designate a taste, or a perspective... like an adjective would?
I would like it too. An example from the other thread.... I like appliance when used with a Mitel PBX but not with FreePBX. One is very packaged and I can't control it (without totally killing what makes it what it is) whereas the other is totally designed for me to... use however I see fit.
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@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@black3dynamite said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Appliance more of a pre-configured device?
Kind of. But what about after you start using it?
Depends if you start messing with it in ways not intended by its manufacturer...
