Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions
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Check the official post by Kopano... saying that Patrick got his sense of needing to push me to pay for solutions because I bumped the CentOS thread so quickly. Except he ignored the fact that I Patrick did that an hour and a half before I bumped that thread and ignored the fact that the bump was to showcase exactly that.
Even the official people are looking for excuses and not being very careful in looking to see how they respond. Trying to make me sound urgent is just an excuse to cover up a rude community. Patrick made that up and the vendor is now trying to back it up.
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Because people like to change things later, I want for the record what people are calling rude and pushing for urgency. Please see my initial post and the immediate mention of needing to pay for supported OSes.
Several people have called my post rude and needing urgency. How should I have approached this to keep the Kopano community from getting angry for having tested Ubuntu 16.10 when CentOS 7 didn't work?
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There there was some back and forth with the vendor to help to explain to them how Ubuntu support works as they were not familiar with it. They kindly pointed out that Kopano doesn't support the same versions that Ubuntu does, so they have a "production mismatch" which we consider non-viable. So that's fine. It is what it is. Then Patrick picks up with this as his further response. Sure sounds like someone trying to get us to pay...
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Patrick ( who I do not know what it is) simply pointed out that if you do want instant replies you need to have a subscription to have instant support.
Fair enough, that's same as RedHat vs Centos.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
Patrick ( who I do not know what it is) simply pointed out that if you do want instant replies you need to have a subscription to have instant support.
Fair enough, that's same as RedHat vs Centos.
Yes, pointed it out over and over when there was no reason to bring it up. It's like he's an advertising bot. What would prompt him to keep pushing when no one had any urgency except for him? That's the issue. Out of context, it's just pressuring us to pay money for responses - other than responses telling us to spend money.
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I think it's perhaps people on the forums (like me) got fed up with your arrogance?
When I did go to Kopano / zarafa, or whichever software I use, I went kindly and trying to help for as much as I was helped, and this way I went far.
If you just go somewhere and tell them how arrogant you are, perhaps the response is: perhaps if you pay someone will reply to you?
I certainly wouldn't want to spend my time helping you even if, frankly, I could just do it as I do have Centos too.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
Fair enough, that's same as RedHat vs Centos.
I've never seen anyone in a Linux community ask a general question and get told to pay for support. Plus CentOS has access to all the RHEL code the same as RHEL. It's not a second class citizen that doesn't get the same freezes. It's very different than CentOS and RHEL. If they had something like CentOS and RHEL, we'd be thrilled. That's the exact production component that we were looking for here and don't have.
When you get CentOS for free, you have a working system. And a vendor that makes sure that it works. And communities that don't tell you to spend money to get responses (especially just for posting an issue.) Access to the full repos and so forth.
Zimbra is the same, full code the same as their commercial release. Yes, some pieces are left out, but what you get from Zimbra is the same tested, working, stood behind code that they use everywhere.
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great, so get Zimbra and we will all be very happy
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we will be all too happy if you choose something else
so please go and get Zimbra, install it, and please do not email me. -
@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
great, so get Zimbra and we will all be very happy
We did, last night. We already moved on. Was only doing this to provide Kopano with feedback above and beyond what we had planned to do. I didn't want to be pushing Zimbra on their site, and we are "glad" that their community solidified what was a questionable decision last night. But we talked about it and didn't feel that Kopano was production ready and seemed to lack an operational mindset for business use. But we were kind of on the fence, we had both working but decided that even with Kopano working, we couldn't trust them as a vendor. Today, though, we feel totally confident in that assessment and won't be evaluating it again, I imagine. Which is actually great, as we got to tear down the testing environment and focus on other things. Had we know what their community was like yesterday, we could have skipped the evaluation completely. But, importantly, we learned more about their commercial product this way and know that we could not work with that either. So that was useful. It was not a wasted exercise.
But all of that posting on their community was for their benefit, not ours.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
we will be all too happy if you choose something else
so please go and get Zimbra, install it, and please do not email me.It was at your request that I posted in the community. You felt that they could be helpful or change our minds. We were happy to move on completely earlier.
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The marketplace includes may products, with Microsoft, Google, Zimbra, Kopano, whatever else there is which I may not even know.
So by all means if you are happy with Zimbra I'll be happy too.
In terms of production readyness, that's entirely your judgement.
I have spent my entire career in IT in very senior roles (particularly in the financial services where you do not really want to have issues with production code) and I can tell you that I am very very happy to run Kopano in my production environment even with the nightly builds.
When I have issues I have been always helped either by the community or Kopano directly.
yes I take the nightly builds but I am capable of doing my own testing and judge whether to push them live or not.
Therefore by all means, choose the product you prefer, but do not go around rubbishing other products because there are other people, for example like myself, who has the opposite point of view and no matter how long and how much you try to convince me you will not be able to.
I did not disagree with you about Zimbra nor any other product, so please do not comment on products that you do not know or that you have not spent the time approaching correctly in the light of THEIR (not yours) community model.
Zimbra community model is different. They give you the official builds but no advanced features.
Kopano gives you the advanced features but nightly builds.Which one is better? It depends on the uses. I need Kopano for the advanced features, you perhaps Zimbra because you prefer to install that one.
The world is different for everyone so choose the one you like and I do too. -
Zimbra is free and stable? Well yes, if you do not need 50% of the features they have.
Kopano is free? yes, if you agree with the model of the nightly builds.
YOU choose the one you prefer, but to say that one is better than the other one? Really trust me, I can't.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
I think it's perhaps people on the forums (like me) got fed up with your arrogance?
Arrogance? Please PLEASE show me which post did this. You have pushed and pushed this product, you pushed the community and look how it responded. Everyone, including you, has been rude from the beginning. It's clear that you've had a huge agenda. You say you aren't making money from this (you've said it a LOT) and said how things never fail, then on their site mention that well, sometimes the deployments don't actually work. I've been anything but arrogant, I posted politely and you and your troll buddy use it as a platform to attack.
Anyone that doesn't support the product you are pushing has to be arrogant, is that how it works? Do what you say or I'm being rude? Always an excuse... oh it works for you? Sure it does. I doubt you've even run it. That would explain why no one in the community has any constructive input, just attacks for anyone that dares step out of line and post that there is an installation question. Pay up or f*^& off .... you've tipped your hand vendor man.
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Just to be clear, I am NOT a kopano employee nor a QA tester nor I own shares nor anything else, whatsoever.
I do not resell Kopano nor I am one of their partners.
I am a COMMUNITY user like many others who like their product and, in the same way as if you ask someone if they prefer a Porsche or a Ferrari, most would be very passionate about their choice.
Me feeling passionate about Kopano vs other products has nothing to do with me being associated with Kopano or any OTHER software company.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
Zimbra is free and stable?
Yup, unlike Kopano. So one is viable, one is not.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
Just to be clear, I am NOT a kopano employee nor a QA tester nor I own shares nor anything else, whatsoever.
Yes, you've said that a LOT. No one asked, but you just keep repeating it. And everything you post is about how we need to try it. Even when we didn't ask. You've pushed and pushed and pushed. Why?
Why, if you are not an employee or paid to promote it, have you mentioned it so many times and pushed so hard when it was clear that Kopano was not living up to the hype and even more when the community was clearly falling apart?
Unless you are representing the vendor, your actions just don't make sense.
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By all means you can believe what you want, but I am not an employee, nor a reseller, nor a developer, nor anything else.
I am a user and if someone asks me which car I like, well, I'll give them my honest opinion.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
By all means you can believe what you want, but I am not an employee, nor a reseller, nor a developer, nor anything else.
I am a user and if someone asks me which car I like, well, I'll give them my honest opinion.
And if that is true, I and I'm sure everyone else really appreciate that opinion. But if we didn't share that opinion, if we had different needs, you pushed and pushed. Kopano doesn't meet our needs nor offer anything special for us. I can see why you like it, never said that I didn't. But our needs focus around production readiness and operational mindset where Zimbra shines and Kopano doesn't appear to even try, even in their commercial release. So if you call those features, which is reasonable, then ZImbra has key features that we need that Kopano lacks.
No one ever said that you should not run it, love it, use it, promote it, etc. That's all great. But if I didn't agree, if it didn't meet my needs, I was told to spend money and even questioning that was "arrogance." That's where we disconnected.
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As I said I never criticised with you not choosing Zimbra, there are many products.
I do instead disagree with you entirely on the community not being helpful and the production readiness of the product.
I think your approach to the community was wrong and perhaps that's why you did not receive the information you needed.
Every community is different and perhaps the approach to each of them has to be different.
As I said I run it in production and I have no downtime more than Microsoft does or whatever. And I am not even on their official releases but on the nightly builds.
So in the subject of production readiness that's again a matter of judgement and I do believe the opposite than you do.
