Time to gut the network - thoughts?
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@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
If you literally can't find a competitor, you need to bring in a real IT consultant that is unrelated to the first one.
And they would say Juniper, or Brocade. So again, not Ubiquiti.
Right, why is that a problem?
I agree with Scott here - not every consultant can know every product.. so the consultant not making a specific recommendation doesn't mean they are out to hurt you, just that they are unaware of another option.
Right. It might mean that they miss something good for you. That can't be helped. What we are looking for most is eliminating the worst case of someone intentionally trying to take advantage of you.
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@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
Haven't you ever heard of all those parents that don't want their kids watching commercial television all the time for this reason? Are you aware of PBS?
No I have never heard of these parents.
It's so common, I thought it was like the 50%+ situation. I know of very few parents that haven't outright stated that concern.
about ads? Nope, never heard this.
Very strange. I think you are the snowflake here
i'll accept that, I don't have kids, I don't hang with people who have them, and if I do, I definitely don't talk about them. Completely outside my wheelhouse.
It's enough that I've heard it my whole life. It's specifically why so many people dislike the Disney Channel and Nickelodean, so much kid-targeted advertising and kids are very susceptible to it.
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
Again, this boils down to changing the actual advice, regardless of your concern that 'questioning everything' leads to to much fatigue.
Challenging? Yes, challenge the advice when there is good reason to do so.
I didn't you were challenging, but maybe you were - but the good reason is because - you're doing good businsess practices and ensuring your consultant is in fact giving you good advice by showing all their work.
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
Haven't you ever heard of all those parents that don't want their kids watching commercial television all the time for this reason? Are you aware of PBS?
No I have never heard of these parents.
It's so common, I thought it was like the 50%+ situation. I know of very few parents that haven't outright stated that concern.
about ads? Nope, never heard this.
Very strange. I think you are the snowflake here
i'll accept that, I don't have kids, I don't hang with people who have them, and if I do, I definitely don't talk about them. Completely outside my wheelhouse.
It's enough that I've heard it my whole life. It's specifically why so many people dislike the Disney Channel and Nickelodean, so much kid-targeted advertising and kids are very susceptible to it.
In thinking about these comments, then seeing kids going ape ship in a store because ma/pa won't buy some stupid thing they saw on TV.. OK I think I see what you're driving at... but at the same time, I see a failed parent who hasn't set their children's expectations correctly when they go to a store.
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Remember that the fact that someone markets is not the concern. The concern is that when there is enough marketing (especially to non-IT people) to create a common emotional acceptance reaction in the market place, that there is a super common sales pattern of leveraging that to sell poor solutions (overpriced is a form of a solution being poor) to take advantage of customers in this way. So knowing that this chain of events triggers this common bad advice pattern, we should be wary and pay extra attention and question motives or the advice when this scenario arises.
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@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
Haven't you ever heard of all those parents that don't want their kids watching commercial television all the time for this reason? Are you aware of PBS?
No I have never heard of these parents.
It's so common, I thought it was like the 50%+ situation. I know of very few parents that haven't outright stated that concern.
about ads? Nope, never heard this.
Very strange. I think you are the snowflake here
i'll accept that, I don't have kids, I don't hang with people who have them, and if I do, I definitely don't talk about them. Completely outside my wheelhouse.
It's enough that I've heard it my whole life. It's specifically why so many people dislike the Disney Channel and Nickelodean, so much kid-targeted advertising and kids are very susceptible to it.
In thinking about these comments, then seeing kids going ape ship in a store because ma/pa won't buy some stupid thing they saw on TV.. OK I think I see what you're driving at... but at the same time, I see a failed parent who hasn't set their children's expectations correctly when they go to a store.
Well that's just kids not getting what they want. WHICH products they do it about is generally drive by TV ads
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@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
I agree with Scott here - not every consultant can know every product.
Exactly. So this statement:
It's not that Cisco is always wrong, but if your "consultant" recommends Cisco you should be more wary of him than if he suggested Juniper or Ubiquiti.
Again, how the eff does the person find out about the other products if consultants don't know about them.
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@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
Again, this boils down to changing the actual advice, regardless of your concern that 'questioning everything' leads to to much fatigue.
Challenging? Yes, challenge the advice when there is good reason to do so.
I didn't you were challenging, but maybe you were - but the good reason is because - you're doing good businsess practices and ensuring your consultant is in fact giving you good advice by showing all their work.
I don't know if challenging is quite correct, but questioning at least. And it doesn't mean questioning forcefully. It can be pretty light...
"Oh, IBM servers, I've heard of them a lot. I'm sure they make some great stuff. Are you sure that IBM is the right choice here?"
"Oh, well yes, I think IBM is the way to go, for sure."
"Okay, well that could certainly be. Is there some technical limitations that make this the only choice? Is this that much cheaper than the alternatives?"
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
Remember that the fact that someone markets is not the concern. The concern is that when there is enough marketing (especially to non-IT people) to create a common emotional acceptance reaction in the market place, that there is a super common sales pattern of leveraging that to sell poor solutions (overpriced is a form of a solution being poor) to take advantage of customers in this way. So knowing that this chain of events triggers this common bad advice pattern, we should be wary and pay extra attention and question motives or the advice when this scenario arises.
What Cisco marketing to non-IT people is there? I'd be willing to be most people think they just make phones.
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
Remember that the fact that someone markets is not the concern. The concern is that when there is enough marketing (especially to non-IT people) to create a common emotional acceptance reaction in the market place, that there is a super common sales pattern of leveraging that to sell poor solutions (overpriced is a form of a solution being poor) to take advantage of customers in this way. So knowing that this chain of events triggers this common bad advice pattern, we should be wary and pay extra attention and question motives or the advice when this scenario arises.
I will give you this. But I guess I take the advice you've stated to be not really advice, but a reminder to "do good business practices" instead.
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@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
Again, how the eff does the person find out about the other products if consultants don't know about them.
- You don't always have to know about alternatives.
- First Google hit gives you more info than you need.
- No one should ever be completely without a backup consultant.
- Post to any number of online forums, ask a local business group.
- If your consultant doesn't know about anything but Cisco, you need a new consultant, period. They aren't doing the job that you are paying them to do if they didn't even consider an alternative. So in this example, questioning the solution verified our worst fears and you are getting screwed (paying for advice that you are not getting.)
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@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
Remember that the fact that someone markets is not the concern. The concern is that when there is enough marketing (especially to non-IT people) to create a common emotional acceptance reaction in the market place, that there is a super common sales pattern of leveraging that to sell poor solutions (overpriced is a form of a solution being poor) to take advantage of customers in this way. So knowing that this chain of events triggers this common bad advice pattern, we should be wary and pay extra attention and question motives or the advice when this scenario arises.
I will give you this. But I guess I take the advice you've stated to be not really advice, but a reminder to "do good business practices" instead.
Well, it's advice if you already know good business, a reminder if you forgot them, advice if you are not already aware.
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@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
What Cisco marketing to non-IT people is there? I'd be willing to be most people think they just make phones.
Television ads. Billboards. Digital signage at conferences and things like that. Airport ads are super common. Magazine ads in travel magazines, for example. SW ads (little jab there.) It's pretty much everywhere that you would also see a McDonald's ad.
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
Again, how the eff does the person find out about the other products if consultants don't know about them.
- If your consultant doesn't know about anything but
Ciscoa single vendor/product, you need a new consultant, period.
FTFY
OK now that I've changed that - I 100% agree.
Scott's done a good job in the past of saying when he provides recommendations he doesn't just give the top dog.. he almost always mentioned the second and third runners up.
- If your consultant doesn't know about anything but
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@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
....Cisco.... I'd be willing to be most people think they just make phones.
This may be true, but I'd be surprised. I can see why you'd think that. But their phone thing is recent and their marketing (to non-technical people) as the core backbone of the Internet and networking has been very strong, for a very long time. Maybe most people connect them with phones today, but a tonne connect them with a lot of other things.
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Gotta go.. Poker time.
Caio!
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@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
Again, how the eff does the person find out about the other products if consultants don't know about them.
- If your consultant doesn't know about anything but
Ciscoa single vendor/product, you need a new consultant, period.
FTFY
OK now that I've changed that - I 100% agree.
Scott's done a good job in the past of saying when he provides recommendations he doesn't just give the top dog.. he almost always mentioned the second and third runners up.
Yes, anyone paid to choose the right solution for you that turns out to not even know more than one solution (this doesn't just mean vendor, either) isn't consulting - because they can't be. They didn't even compare two things. They just sold the one thing that they can sell (or advise.) You pay for them to know something. This would imply that they literally know nothing at all (in the context.)
- If your consultant doesn't know about anything but
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In a case like that, you couldn't even have them say that they liked the product. What does like Cisco even mean if you don't have something to like it in comparison to?
I like the iPhone? Really, what makes it better than Android? What's an Android?
Doh!
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
Again, how the eff does the person find out about the other products if consultants don't know about them.
- You don't always have to know about alternatives.
- First Google hit gives you more info than you need.
- No one should ever be completely without a backup consultant.
- Post to any number of online forums, ask a local business group.
- If your consultant doesn't know about anything but Cisco, you need a new consultant, period. They aren't doing the job that you are paying them to do if they didn't even consider an alternative. So in this example, questioning the solution verified our worst fears and you are getting screwed (paying for advice that you are not getting.)
- Then what is the point of the conversation?
- No it doesn't. It didn't mention Ubiquiti at all, only large players that are very expensive.
- Again, I'll give you $100 if you can find one random consultant (that you don't know) to recommend something like Ubiquiti
- So those would be SW or here in your opinion. Where else would you post?
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@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
- You don't always have to know about alternatives.
- Then what is the point of the conversation?
To know when you need to question why you are getting advice. As I covered in the "how to question" part, it's normally about looking into motivation, not researching the alternatives. That you question why you were told to buy Cisco does not imply that you need to know personally what the other options are or were.
