Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Lastly, commissions are not the only thing can cloud someone's view. If the client is cheap and wants as fast as possible, you might be tempted to recommend products you are most familiar with and can work quickly with.
Yes, as long as you are disclosing that you are being offered money to act against the potential interests of the customer. But it's all on your shoulders to make it ethical.
This kind of sentence is what keeps bugging me.
No, how about I am acting exactly in the best interests of the client AND recommended the best solutions AND getting a small finder's fee?
Why is this impossible? Of course it's not impossible.
Sure the negative aspects of human nature may take over in many or even most all cases, but you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Do you sell it for the commission, or do you sell it anyway and a commission is just a bonus?
I don't see any problem with a little earned commission on selling things you already promote anyway. Just as long as those little commission benefits don't cloud your judgement about clients' needs.
How can it not?
And while you might not not allow it to cloud your judgement, as someone hiring you, I can't know that.
If my goal is to hire you as a consultant looking for the best option for me, it's in my best interest for you to only be getting paid by me and no one else (at least in relation to the products/project that I want your consultant opinion on).
Likewise, that partner is paying you to sell their product, rather than to listen to my needs. You cannot serve two masters. There is no way to "do right" by both, you have to pick. And one pays more than the other, and more consistently.
Affiliate commission is not a partnership. They don't call me, send me brochures, offer me vacation packages, send me to conferences and sales training etc. I don't even get a free T-shirt.
I just sign up for an affiliate of my own will, for products I already love and recommend a lot anyway. I never hear from them, there is no pressure from them to influence me at all.Some programs work that way. DO, Vultr, Linode for example. The payments are tiny, too. But it is very easy. A lot of things, like Ubiquiti, though, have HUGE requirements and you have to work super hard to be able to maintain your agreements. Every company is different.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Sure the negative aspects of human nature may take over in many or even most all cases, but you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here.
Only if the baby is the commission. If the commission comes across as the baby, doesn't that show why we feel concern? If the commission is tiny, is it worth the conflict? If the money is big, then there is big conflict.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
No, how about I am acting exactly in the best interests of the client AND recommended the best solutions AND getting a small finder's fee?
Why is this impossible? Of course it's not impossible.
What you are doing is going from the wrong direction. IF in a given situation these things all come together, sure. But what about all of the times when they don't? Your logic only works if you never get clients that don't match up like this. And how many do? Realistically, what product or even product category is so ubiquitous that you could do something like this?
I know for us, that getting paid to do cloud computing recommendations or storage like Synology... all of which we really like as vendors or ideas, would influence us in ways not beneficial to a large percentage of clients. I understand what you are saying, but having been in the consulting space for nearly two decades without being a reseller... I don't know what product I could pick to have the effect that you describe. Certainly nothing in the hosting or storage space.
The only things that we've found are antivirus and hosted email and the latter required four vendors to cover what we felt was necessary bases to remain above board. I would potentially agree with cloud VPS posting if you cover a number of bases, but we've declined to do that there as the questionability is too high with nearly zero payoff. We'd earn nothing but have to disclose it constantly.
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Something that seems to be missing is the stated fact of the selling of a thing and the recommendation of a thing.
These two acts should be done by two different entities. If both are done by the same, then the potential of bias to to great to be ethically bound to one side or the other.
Let me put this another way. If you are a reseller of servers, your companies goal should be to make as much money as possible selling servers - it does not matter if a the customer needs it or not, your goal is to sell it to them.
But, if your company is a consulting company, you goal is to sell the best recommendation of a solution to a customer.
Now here's a rub - How does NTG resolve the conflict between being a consulting company and an implementation/maintaining company? i.e. Scott is hired to build a network plan for a company, then Gene installs/configures those things that the customer bought from someone else, based on Scott's recommendation?
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Now here's a rub - How does NTG resolve the conflict between being a consulting company and an implementation/maintaining company? i.e. Scott is hired to build a network plan for a company, then Gene installs/configures those things that the customer bought from someone else, based on Scott's recommendation?
To some degree, we don't. Although no one is commissioned off of sales of anything, including implementations, so that's one component of that. Another is that we simply point out that if we recommend lots of labour, that we obviously get those hours. Most people laugh because that is obvious. But, you know.
Generally you are correct, though, I don't do implementations so if I do a design it is separated. Customers can hire us for just one piece or the other, as well.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Sure the negative aspects of human nature may take over in many or even most all cases, but you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here.
Only if the baby is the commission. If the commission comes across as the baby, doesn't that show why we feel concern? If the commission is tiny, is it worth the conflict? If the money is big, then there is big conflict.
The baby is the consultant themselves. They can ONLY be a good consultant when there is zero monetary gain from recommending any particular solution. But if there IS gain from any particular solution, they become a CORRUPT consultant immediately.
You are unwilling to allow for someone to continue giving solid advice and solutions irregardless of affiliations.I'm suggesting there is a lot of reasons why a consultant might be biased, money is only one angle. Maybe they are just used to it. They work faster with it. The setup process is smoother. They have some kind of remote abilities. They find tech support easier to use.
All these create "bias" too. The best solution might actually be a product the consultant has never heard of yet. The best solution might be the one they avoid because it's too complex or requires too much of his time to train the client.
Bias is everywhere, but you are suggesting monetary bias is especially damning. But any of the above can lead to bad solutions too. -
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
The baby is the consultant themselves. They can ONLY be a good consultant when there is zero monetary gain from recommending any particular solution. But if there IS gain from any particular solution, they become a CORRUPT consultant immediately.
Not quite... it's in intentionally choosing to be paid for the recommendation. It's not that they get paid, it is that they choose to get paid. If that makes sense. There is always bias, but there is strong bias that you seek out.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
You are unwilling to allow for someone to continue giving solid advice and solutions irregardless of affiliations.
Pretty much, that's correct. Someone choosing to have money drive their actions, who then accepts money given for the express purpose of driving their actions in another way, will be influenced by that money. And doing sales under the guise of consulting is unethical.
That is correct, I feel that that is essentially black and white. If you consult for the purpose of making money, you can't not be swayed by someone giving you money for another purpose. The fact that this is your job makes you influenced by money.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I'm suggesting there is a lot of reasons why a consultant might be biased, money is only one angle.
DId you read my article on understanding bias? There are bias that are good, bias that are bad, bias that you can avoid, bias that you cannot. Consulting is about paying for good bias. Selling is about bad bias. If you intentionally introduce an unethical bias against the interest of the people who are paying you, that's a bad bias that could have been avoided.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Bias is everywhere, but you are suggesting monetary bias is especially damning. But any of the above can lead to bad solutions too.
Correct. Because in this situation....
- People are heavily influenced by money in general.
- The fact that you are paid to consult means you are affected by money specifically.
- The fact that you are willing to be paid to sell means you are affected by money more than if you were just a consultant. This only comes up as a concern at all because you are strongly influenced by the effect.
- It's an avoidable bias that doesn't need to exist. Some bias are unavoidable, this one is not. It's not unethical to like a product, but it is to take money from another party to mislead the first (even if you don't intend to.)
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Let me try a completely different tact. In talking to us about this, you feel one way because we are consultants. So we trigger one mental or emotional response.
Think of it this way, if you had a customer reading your logic on this thread, would you feel comfortable with that? Would you feel confident that they would agree with your logic and reasoning? Would you feel squirmish? Would you feel that you needed to amend what you had said?
It's totally up to you, of course. But imagine going into a client after making recommendation and finding out that they had read about your approach and that you were getting paid, even just a little, to sell whatever you had ended up recommending to them. Would you be happy that they read how much thought you put into it? Would you be upset and feel that you needed to explain?
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
You are unwilling to allow for someone to continue giving solid advice and solutions irregardless of affiliations.
Pretty much, that's correct. Someone choosing to have money drive their actions, who then accepts money given for the express purpose of driving their actions in another way, will be influenced by that money. And doing sales under the guise of consulting is unethical.
That is correct, I feel that that is essentially black and white. If you consult for the purpose of making money, you can't not be swayed by someone giving you money for another purpose. The fact that this is your job makes you influenced by money.
This is just a play on words, and why we're going around and around.
I don't sign up for an affiliation because I somehow WANT and CHOOSE to have "money drive their actions". I don't want money to drive my actions at all! I signed up because it's just available to do.
I sign up because it's just THERE, easy, free, simple. I think of it as nothing more than walking down the sidewalk and seeing a $50 bill. I bend over and pick it up because it's there. Something I wasn't expecting, but hey it's there.
Similarly, I often recommend product X, then I get an email "hey we do affiliate! Click this link" so I click the link, click OK, and done. So easy. A bonus if it ever actually comes through.
I wake up the next morning feeling no different than I did before. Corruption hasn't overtaken my veins magically. I don't feel particular shifty or conniving! -
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I don't sign up for an affiliation because I somehow WANT and CHOOSE to have "money drive their actions". I don't want money to drive my actions at all! I signed up because it's just available to do.
Is that also why you want to consult? If not, why does one set of money influence you and why does one not?
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I sign up because it's just THERE, easy, free, simple. I think of it as nothing more than walking down the sidewalk and seeing a $50 bill. I bend over and pick it up because it's there. Something I wasn't expecting, but hey it's there.
But you only get to pick it up if you tell someone to spend money in a specific way. It's not at all like just picking up free money.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Sure the negative aspects of human nature may take over in many or even most all cases, but you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here.
Only if the baby is the commission. If the commission comes across as the baby, doesn't that show why we feel concern? If the commission is tiny, is it worth the conflict? If the money is big, then there is big conflict.
The baby is the consultant themselves. They can ONLY be a good consultant when there is zero monetary gain from recommending any particular solution. But if there IS gain from any particular solution, they become a CORRUPT consultant immediately.
You are unwilling to allow for someone to continue giving solid advice and solutions irregardless of affiliations.Why don't you agree with this?
I'm suggesting there is a lot of reasons why a consultant might be biased, money is only one angle. Maybe they are just used to it. They work faster with it. The setup process is smoother. They have some kind of remote abilities. They find tech support easier to use.
Actually, they shouldn't create bias, they should be line items in the decision making process. But money you earn because someone buys something you recommend should not be a line item, if it is, then the customer is getting screwed by that line item.
This again comes to the consulting aspect. I'm guessing that you've never been paid to give an opinion - that is what Scott is talking about here. Consulting in this regard is simply being paid, by the customer, to do the research to present the best option for the customer. If the customer isn't paying for this research, who is?
All these create "bias" too. The best solution might actually be a product the consultant has never heard of yet. The best solution might be the one they avoid because it's too complex or requires too much of his time to train the client.
Yep, that is why they need to pay you to spend the time to do the research.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I don't sign up for an affiliation because I somehow WANT and CHOOSE to have "money drive their actions". I don't want money to drive my actions at all! I signed up because it's just available to do.
Is that also why you want to consult? If not, why does one set of money influence you and why does one not?
Because my MAIN job, is much more. You really think if I'm doing a $1000 or $3000 job that the addition or lack of a $20 affiliate link is going to swing things on way or the other?
On the other hand, I agree that if I'm doing a job for $100 but the affiliation is $150, that can feel very influential.
Or even worse, lets say I simply get an email from somebody asking a question. I can easily email them my links back. This is job that pays nothing, yet I could end up with some money just the same.The amount of bias, then, seems quite relative.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
That is correct, I feel that that is essentially black and white. If you consult for the purpose of making money, you can't not be swayed by someone giving you money for another purpose. The fact that this is your job makes you influenced by money.
and here's the rub - I'm guessing you're not being paid to recommend that equipment - which makes you a VAR, not a consultant.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I wake up the next morning feeling no different than I did before. Corruption hasn't overtaken my veins magically. I don't feel particular shifty or conniving!
It doesn't normally. But I know that if I'm paid to sell one thing and not paid to sell another, I'm not as neutral as I would like to be. I'm not horribly biased, but it's not zero. The problem is, the more the money is valuable, the more it influences me (or anyone.)
So if I'm getting $1... I'm not influenced much. But it begs the question, why did I bother?
If I'm getting $50K, I'm influenced a lot, in which case, I'm really unethical. The ratio is direct; so to me it is always bad. If you make almost nothing, why do it. If you make a lot, you are heavily biased.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I sign up because it's just THERE, easy, free, simple. I think of it as nothing more than walking down the sidewalk and seeing a $50 bill. I bend over and pick it up because it's there. Something I wasn't expecting, but hey it's there.
But you only get to pick it up if you tell someone to spend money in a specific way. It's not at all like just picking up free money.
But that's how I think of it as.
You mentioned Ubiquity's program. If the program requires contracts and quotas and all this garbage, no thanks, I'll pass. But if it's just pressing the OK button, it's free money. Just a bonus. Just bending over and picking it up simply because it's there.
