Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?
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@dafyre said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Regardless, I think the points have been made, though I obviously don't agree with many other sentiments, especially opinion-based assumptions about ethics and such.
I'm tempted to just deleted this thread, as it went way off topic and is just a brawl. Not sure it's useful to anybody and I don't want any ill feelings going around.
I don't think it's strayed too far off topic as threads tend to do this naturally on their own. A brawl... Maybe, but I don't see anybody just whining and complaining that we don't think like they do.
I don't think this thread should be deleted because it shows how wide our differences are be it culture, or ethics, or simply in the way we think... It gives us all insight into one another.
One thing I have to remember when I get involved in threads like this is to not take anything personal -- even if it sounds like I should. The folks posting on this thread all have a wide variety of experience and viewpoints and when a lot of them think the same way , it can feel like they're ganging up on you, when they're really not! lol.
As someone who had this fight a few months back, I feel differently about it now.
Leave the thread. In a few weeks/months you might feel differently, too.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It's obvious people already in IT have all these strong thoughts on the subject, but I've never met a normal person outside of tech, even small business owners, who are this pedantic about things. I've never had somebody flip their shat after me offering them an affiliate link as if I've just totally screwed over their entire job.
Nor has a customer ever just paid you $500 for a consulting job then turn around and find out that Dell (which was in your consulting offerings) was paying you $50 because the customer bought the Dell, either.
You're assuming they would even care if it did happen.
Do you care if you buy something on ebay and find out they were just reselling it from Amazon with a $2 markup? Or vice versa from ebay to Amazon?Actually, yes I would be, but at myself for not looking at Amazon, not at the person selling on ebay, because that person made no representation that they are MY agent in this buying arrangement.
Do you care if you hire a mobile car mechanic and they install a starter from ABC company that they get a kickback for ABC starters? OMG I thought my mechanic was going to have pure, unbiased opinions about starters! Na, probably not, probably they install all their starters from ABC because they've found over the years they have the least amount of problems with them, they last a long time, have good warranties, etc.
Actually, it's more likely that they get the best pricing with the least amount of returns from ABC - but do I expect them to be unbiased? hell no I don't.. again, they are not my agent for buying a starter - I know a car mechanic is probably a VAR, and I'm OK with that. They might deal with 2-5 different companies for starters. They'll show me all the options, and when I ask for their opinion, I fully expect them to tell me the best one is the one with the highest markup in their favor, even if it is the best one to by or the worst one to buy.
Because they are not my agent, they are the shops agent.People are so hung up on whether a commission utterly destroys the quality of work, when they should be asking is, was the work performed well and the equipment quality and the right choice.
You are the only one using the word destroys - what it destroys is your credibility.
Does it matter if Dell paid the tech? Or does it matter if Dell was a good choice and works? Would you rather prefer HP without the commission? Since that has everything to do with quality of solution apparently.
You also seem stuck that a VAR can only resell one vendor - that's simply not the case. Our classically used CDW sells EVERY vendor. They will sell you anything you want.
You're not asking if Dell was, in fact, the best choice. You're just implying that because of a commission, Dell was more likely a skewed and thus wrong choice. Commissions don't automatically make the product a wrong choice.
Who said this? No one in this thread has EVER said this. What they said was that there is a "Chance" that the consultant's opinion could be swayed by the fact that they could get paid because of the recommendation. That is all! Is that change worth it?
But the answer is no, no client "learns" I was paid, because if they buy anything "through me" that is explained at the time I offer them a link. Secondly, I didn't know Dell paid anybody anything, do they have an affiliate program? [[opens search engine....]]
Yes they do.
Should we be completely hung up on commissions? Or does anybody care about what actually matters, like quality of work and equipment, which perfectly fulfills the needs, and is performed above and beyond the client's expectations? Maybe that should matter more. It does to me anyway, over and above some religious sense of IT piety and purity.
again, you're mashing things.... if you are installing, you're not really a consultant any more, you're now a solution provider. But if you didn't spend hours and hours pouring over information provided by the customer comparing it to the dozens of options on the market, then you really didn't consult for them either. But if you did do that, spend hours and hours.. are you doing that for free? We are saying that you shouldn't be doing that for free.
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said
Do you care if you hire a mobile car mechanic and they install a starter from ABC company that they get a kickback for ABC starters? OMG I thought my mechanic was going to have pure, unbiased opinions about starters! Na, probably not, probably they install all their starters from ABC because they've found over the years they have the least amount of problems with them, they last a long time, have good warranties, etc.
I believe the response to this is going to be:
"Yes, but he mechanic is a VAR. It is understood he has a relationship with a parts house. He is not giving you a recommendation on what part is best."
That is correct sir.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said
Do you care if you hire a mobile car mechanic and they install a starter from ABC company that they get a kickback for ABC starters? OMG I thought my mechanic was going to have pure, unbiased opinions about starters! Na, probably not, probably they install all their starters from ABC because they've found over the years they have the least amount of problems with them, they last a long time, have good warranties, etc.
I believe the response to this is going to be:
"Yes, but he mechanic is a VAR. It is understood he has a relationship with a parts house. He is not giving you a recommendation on what part is best."
That is correct sir.
I may not agree, but I can quote the other side.
I think that means I should have been in debate club or something.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
What they said was that there is a "Chance" that the consultant's opinion could be swayed by the fact that they could get paid because of the recommendation. That is all! Is that change worth it?
I dunno. Maybe the tech sleeps with his Dell rep? Should that be disclosed? Maybe there is a "chance" it causes bias too.
Maybe they worked somewhere where they paid him a handsome sum of cash to go to Dell training and now he kinda feel obligated to use that training and knowledge. Should that be disclosed?
Maybe he just really really likes Dell and they gave him a free sandwich once at the college Dell job fair booth. Disclose?
Maybe his favorite podcasts and screencast shows play Dell ads all the time and have Dell products and he's somewhat brainwashed because the costar is hot and there is a lot of subliminal stuff going on. Disclose?Why is it a that a consultant is expected to just overcome ALL other biases to do a good job, and that's ok, but ONLY particularly monetary bias it's impossible to overcome ever because there might be one "chance" the bias wins? Some people would probably rather sleep with the Dell rep than get a few affiliate bonuses here and there. Seems a much bigger bias to me.
If all we're saying is it should be avoided due to one possible chance at any time ever, then this pretty much condemns ALL forms of bias, cause they might win sometimes too. We might as well just disclose that we are humans, and we might like some stuff better than other stuff. And that we can only be controlled by our lizard brains whenever money is involved but never for any other reason.
I get it that people have heard many stories of companies being hurt by biased consultants or VARs or whatever, I get it.
But the allure of the bias is also based on need, not only want. If a tech company builds into their revenue structure a dependence on affiliate income as a core strategy, they will be in trouble.
Just like I don't go shopping on an empty stomach, I throw everything in the basket and spend twice as much. If a company builds their structure on a dependence of commissions, they are in trouble.
Not only will be more willing to get the sale, but they'll be more willing to not disclose, because after all, it's a value added service, they get a better rate because we depend on the commissions. I'll help you get what you want as long as you get it through me because my business depends on it.On the other hand, if commissions play no part of your business plan and you don't need them. It's just a tip jar and inconsequential to the work, nor does it effect your fee. Nor do you care if the client uses you or not for the things they buy.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
If someone is looking for a VAR, nothing wrong with being the VAR. If they want a VAR and get a consultant, that's not good either. Why someone would want that, normally is for bad reasons, but it is their own reasons.
this is an interesting point that you have brought up before. I'm not sure that SMB typically go in search of a consultant vs a VAR - and this is a pretty big rub. I think that most of us by know realize that the SMBs rarely know what they want or way they want it. We realize that they probably really do NEED a consultant to design the correct solution for them, but they don't understand this (because they aren't doing business, instead they are playing at it, as Scott would say).
No, they go in search of "buying a box", which means that they are looking for a VAR, but they come at is from a "I want to buy a THING" instead of a "I want help" perspective. That that brings that to looking for a VAR is just the result.
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@dafyre said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
If someone is looking for a VAR, nothing wrong with being the VAR. If they want a VAR and get a consultant, that's not good either. Why someone would want that, normally is for bad reasons, but it is their own reasons.
this is an interesting point that you have brought up before. I'm not sure that SMB typically go in search of a consultant vs a VAR - and this is a pretty big rub. I think that most of us by know realize that the SMBs rarely know what they want or way they want it. We realize that they probably really do NEED a consultant to design the correct solution for them, but they don't understand this (because they aren't doing business, instead they are playing at it, as Scott would say).
And as a result, they wind up using the folks that have a team to "help them".... when that team is really designed to help the VAR / vendor.
Right, if they don't look after their own interests and/or hire an IT/MSP/ITSP person or company to do so, then they are just throwing themselves to the VAR/vendor wolves.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
So if a 3 person non-profit church comes in and wants a $5K server. No questions asked you just sell it to them? Not me. Because I know they do not know what they need. They know the term server, but have no idea what it means, and what it is for. And how for 1/100th or less of the cost they can have a much better solution.
If they didn't come to you for advice and you refuse to sell them what they need, that's kinda weird, right? Hi, we want to buy something from your "store". But you say "sorry, I don't agree with your desires, you can only buy what I think is right for you."
LOL I just think of going to Best Buy - I want to buy a 100 in TV, I'm sorry sir, how large is the room you are putting this in? 10 x 10, OMG that room is way to small for this TV, you should buy the 65 in TV.. lol
Good analogy. You don't appreciate a "store" when you want advice. But you don't appreciate advice once you go to the store.
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I still cannot get past you don't question what your customers really need. And yes, I do know what they need.
Because if they don't ask for advice (and aren't on a peer review forum) it's not polite or warranted to give it. If they are looking to avoid advice, why force it on them? Once in a VAR role, just giving unrequested advice doesn't help you and can only make the customer unhappy. No one wins.
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
But they DO come for advice. That is what I am saying. Am I not getting that across properly?
They don't come asking specifically for a server. The think they might need one, and what do I think?
In which case they would want a consumer advocate, a consultant, right? Every case would be very unique.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Is AWS the uncommon choice for building a cluster of app servers? Is Azure uncommon when they want offsite management of AD?
In the SMB space, absolutely. Neither of these are even on the radar for proper SMB solution sets. Not that neither is ever an option, but pretty much that the SMB space even knows these names is because of VARs pushing big commission products instead of looking at customer needs. These are not products that have any purpose in the normal SMB ecosystem.
If you are looking at the enterprise, then this category is common, but only AWS is super common. There are many providers and you could never use one without a good knowledge of its limitations and features.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Why must one be a VAR before they can have some favorite tools in the toolbox?
You must be a VAR when the solutions you favour pay you to favour them (you can say you aren't ruled by this or whatever, but nothing changes the base fact that they pay you to favour them.) That's the sole reason that they pay you.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Why must one be a VAR before they can have some favorite tools in the toolbox? Or pull out some "common" options when a particular need comes up?
Having a solution that you are paid to favour (or accept money for favouring) or exchanges money in any way... makes you a VAR.
The favoured solution bit is totally wrong and something you added. Favouring a solution doesn't have anything to do with it. A consultant can favour a solution and not be a VAR. A VAR can have all solutions available and have no favourites. The two are unrelated.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Why must one be a VAR before they can have some favorite tools in the toolbox? Or pull out some "common" options when a particular need comes up?
Having a solution that you are paid to favour (or accept money for favouring) or exchanges money in any way... makes you a VAR.
The favoured solution bit is totally wrong and something you added. Favouring a solution doesn't have anything to do with it. A consultant can favour a solution and not be a VAR. A VAR can have all solutions available and have no favourites. The two are unrelated.
This could be a record setting post for most UK spellings of a word.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I still cannot get past you don't question what your customers really need. And yes, I do know what they need.
Because if they don't ask for advice (and aren't on a peer review forum) it's not polite or warranted to give it. If they are looking to avoid advice, why force it on them? Once in a VAR role, just giving unrequested advice doesn't help you and can only make the customer unhappy. No one wins.
I understand this point fully. But at the end of the day when they "find out" that YOUR solution wasn't "really" fixing what they "thought" they wanted. Who gets the blame? Of course they blame you. You become a "bad" company to avoid because they do things that "don't work" and cost a lot of money.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Is AWS the uncommon choice for building a cluster of app servers? Is Azure uncommon when they want offsite management of AD?
In the SMB space, absolutely. Neither of these are even on the radar for proper SMB solution sets. Not that neither is ever an option, but pretty much that the SMB space even knows these names is because of VARs pushing big commission products instead of looking at customer needs. These are not products that have any purpose in the normal SMB ecosystem.
If you are looking at the enterprise, then this category is common, but only AWS is super common. There are many providers and you could never use one without a good knowledge of its limitations and features.
I think this is not true any more. Grabbing an Azure box for $20 a month or whatever the "pay as you go" comes out to, can be quite handy.
The AWS ecosystem where you can grab all kinds of servers/services that are all managed under one account is easier than not for some applications.I think of a friend of mine who is the tech/web guy in a small business in the video/tutorial/courseware market. About, I dunno, 6 or 8 employees. They still work out of the boss's house or the bakery at the mall.
They have moved almost their entire infrastructure to AWS because they can do everything from complete video transcoding to website hosting to video/courseware hosting to server/NAS backups to you name it, all under one roof with wicked fast backend network speeds. It makes it easy to cluster any given service and do round-robin ad-hoc scaling. By using block storage he can now scale micro-servers from a few to a few dozen in minutes to handle any load, and then this scaling can happen automatically.Obviously they still needed my tech friend to manage it all day, but previous solutions cost more, had to work from many different vendors, had slow transfer speeds between them, etc etc. Moving everything to AWS has simplified management and costs are much lower.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Why must one be a VAR before they can have some favorite tools in the toolbox? Or pull out some "common" options when a particular need comes up?
Having a solution that you are paid to favour (or accept money for favouring) or exchanges money in any way... makes you a VAR.
The favoured solution bit is totally wrong and something you added. Favouring a solution doesn't have anything to do with it. A consultant can favour a solution and not be a VAR. A VAR can have all solutions available and have no favourites. The two are unrelated.
They may be unrelated but it's the motive behind it that you twist against my words.
"You must be a VAR when the solutions you favour pay you to favour them"
Except that I already favored them for years, then I decided to sign up, nobody made me. I get it, you are using the absolute definition behind the terms, but I don't like the way you handle the motivations and underlying relationship with the vendor with the language you use.
Being "paid to favor them" is NOT the motivation. It might be true in reality as something that happens, but it does NOT have to mean that this is the technician's primary motivations or the reason why they favor the thing in the first place. It does mean in the least that the commission changes the way they work for the client one iota. It does not HAVE to mean that, not logically, not at all.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Why must one be a VAR before they can have some favorite tools in the toolbox? Or pull out some "common" options when a particular need comes up?
Having a solution that you are paid to favour (or accept money for favouring) or exchanges money in any way... makes you a VAR.
The favoured solution bit is totally wrong and something you added. Favouring a solution doesn't have anything to do with it. A consultant can favour a solution and not be a VAR. A VAR can have all solutions available and have no favourites. The two are unrelated.
Again, CDW is a great example.. they don't have a favored solution save for which ever one this week is giving them better incentives to sell their product. But they most definitely are a VAR.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I still cannot get past you don't question what your customers really need. And yes, I do know what they need.
Because if they don't ask for advice (and aren't on a peer review forum) it's not polite or warranted to give it. If they are looking to avoid advice, why force it on them? Once in a VAR role, just giving unrequested advice doesn't help you and can only make the customer unhappy. No one wins.
I understand this point fully. But at the end of the day when they "find out" that YOUR solution wasn't "really" fixing what they "thought" they wanted. Who gets the blame? Of course they blame you. You become a "bad" company to avoid because they do things that "don't work" and cost a lot of money.
Here's the question - do you care? You don't WANT to work for those people. They clearly don't value IT. If they did, they wouldn't be in that situation.
That said, tons of companies exist solely in this situation and they make a killing at it.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Is AWS the uncommon choice for building a cluster of app servers? Is Azure uncommon when they want offsite management of AD?
In the SMB space, absolutely. Neither of these are even on the radar for proper SMB solution sets. Not that neither is ever an option, but pretty much that the SMB space even knows these names is because of VARs pushing big commission products instead of looking at customer needs. These are not products that have any purpose in the normal SMB ecosystem.
If you are looking at the enterprise, then this category is common, but only AWS is super common. There are many providers and you could never use one without a good knowledge of its limitations and features.
I think this is not true any more. Grabbing an Azure box for $20 a month or whatever the "pay as you go" comes out to, can be quite handy.
The AWS ecosystem where you can grab all kinds of servers/services that are all managed under one account is easier than not for some applications.I think of a friend of mine who is the tech/web guy in a small business in the video/tutorial/courseware market. About, I dunno, 6 or 8 employees. They still work out of the boss's house or the bakery at the mall.
They have moved almost their entire infrastructure to AWS because they can do everything from complete video transcoding to website hosting to video/courseware hosting to server/NAS backups to you name it, all under one roof with wicked fast backend network speeds. It makes it easy to cluster any given service and do round-robin ad-hoc scaling. By using block storage he can now scale micro-servers from a few to a few dozen in minutes to handle any load, and then this scaling can happen automatically.Obviously they still needed my tech friend to manage it all day, but previous solutions cost more, had to work from many different vendors, had slow transfer speeds between them, etc etc. Moving everything to AWS has simplified management and costs are much lower.
Holy shit - tech term soup!
That situation you're talking about might be a one off, so they MIGHT need that. But most SMBs don't. Most SMBs aren't based in tech, they need email, some data storage for spreadsheets/documents, etc and a CRM. Those things don't require the services of AWS or Azure in most cases.
You can't look at a single case and suddenly assume that's the norm.
