Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
This just makes people defensive to try and prove how they are NOT corrupt because nobody wants to be told they are over something stupid like some account credits or a 20 spot.
Sure, but all they have to do is not accept that money. Why accept a $20 commission if it makes you feel corrupt? If you don't feel corrupt and are comfortable that your clients would be okay with that, that's fine, that's up to you. I can tell you for a fact, I'd not be okay accepting that commission under those pretenses. Sorry, I can't sugar coat that, as a consultant, I don't feel that I'd be behaving ethically.
I understand why you feel defensive. But I'm confused because you aren't doing this yet, so we didn't call you corrupt. We said it would be, you aren't arguing that you aren't corrupt, you are arguing that you want to do this anyway, even though we feel it would be corrupt, right?
So bottom line, would you want your clients to know? Would you brag to them about your financial acumen?
This is an ethics question that we face daily. Any day we could accept commissions and make a lot more money that we do. This is very real for us, too.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
My view is that some affiliate programs are like picking up money on the sidewalk, it's just there, take it. Then you say, no, because you must take action before the money appears. Yes of course, I have to be walking down that particular sidewalk!
So my challenge is, I'm walking down that sidewalk anyway, I don't feel particularly righteous by stepping over the money and walking on my way.
If I find myself walking down that same sidewalk 80% of the time, some extra cash is a nice bonus.But the other 20% of the time.... what? You truly believe there is zero influence? You think that the vendors are fools in this case and you are getting their money and not doing what they hope that you will do? Maybe, but that seems a stretch.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
You can call me a corrupt salesman and not a real IT guy or consultant if you want. I just don't think it's that extreme.
No one said that in the least. No one thought that you were doing this, nor did we call sales people corrupt. If you are getting that impression, I would suggest some reflection as to why you are having an emotional reaction to something that isn't about you and why you feel that this is so bad when none of us suggested that it was.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
This just makes people defensive to try and prove how they are NOT corrupt because nobody wants to be told they are over something stupid like some account credits or a 20 spot.
Sure, but all they have to do is not accept that money. Why accept a $20 commission if it makes you feel corrupt? If you don't feel corrupt and are comfortable that your clients would be okay with that, that's fine, that's up to you. I can tell you for a fact, I'd not be okay accepting that commission under those pretenses. Sorry, I can't sugar coat that, as a consultant, I don't feel that I'd be behaving ethically.
Again I feel the need to point out that Scott means that you are being PAID to consult. Not some free advice you give someone.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
ver something stupid like some account credits or a 20 spot.
I don't think anyone is calling you specifically corrupt salesman, not a real IT guy, but we are saying you're not a consultant.
You are a VAR, and there is NOTHING wrong with being a VAR, as long as everyone is aware that you are a VAR, and you're not calling yourself a consultant.
If I were a VAR I would just be selling my one product. But instead I do the work of consultant, researching many possible solutions and presenting them as options.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
So my challenge is, I'm walking down that sidewalk anyway, I don't feel particularly righteous by stepping over the money and walking on my way.
But, as we pointed out, this is a totally false analogy and never does this happen. You never step over money until after you have done something to make it appear. The sidewalk analogy simply isn't true, but makes it sound better than it is. This analogy approach makes me feel like you are trying to convince yourself, not us, that the money is just lying there. Using it makes us feel even moreso that it is not.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
ver something stupid like some account credits or a 20 spot.
I don't think anyone is calling you specifically corrupt salesman, not a real IT guy, but we are saying you're not a consultant.
You are a VAR, and there is NOTHING wrong with being a VAR, as long as everyone is aware that you are a VAR, and you're not calling yourself a consultant.
If I were a VAR I would just be selling my one product. But instead I do the work of consultant, researching many possible solutions and presenting them as options.
Nope, nearly all VARs sell many. I know of essentially none, but there are a few, that only sell one or two.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
You can call me a corrupt salesman and not a real IT guy or consultant if you want. I just don't think it's that extreme.
No one said that in the least. No one thought that you were doing this, nor did we call sales people corrupt. If you are getting that impression, I would suggest some reflection as to why you are having an emotional reaction to something that isn't about you and why you feel that this is so bad when none of us suggested that it was.
LOL I'll respond to this - It's really hard for the emotional creatures that we are to not become upset in general when the side of an issue we are on is being what we consider, attacked.
I've definitely been on @guyinpv side of this conversation against the powers of ML.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
ver something stupid like some account credits or a 20 spot.
I don't think anyone is calling you specifically corrupt salesman, not a real IT guy, but we are saying you're not a consultant.
You are a VAR, and there is NOTHING wrong with being a VAR, as long as everyone is aware that you are a VAR, and you're not calling yourself a consultant.
If I were a VAR I would just be selling my one product. But instead I do the work of consultant, researching many possible solutions and presenting them as options.
Why do you think that? CDW is a VAR and they sell everything.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
You can call me a corrupt salesman and not a real IT guy or consultant if you want. I just don't think it's that extreme.
No one said that in the least. No one thought that you were doing this, nor did we call sales people corrupt. If you are getting that impression, I would suggest some reflection as to why you are having an emotional reaction to something that isn't about you and why you feel that this is so bad when none of us suggested that it was.
LOL I'll respond to this - It's really hard for the emotional creatures that we are to not become upset in general when the side of an issue we are on is being what we consider, attacked.
I've definitely been on @guyinpv side of this conversation against the powers of ML.
I'm only saying that he's not ON that side of the issue to us. If he's actually on that side of the issue, it's something that we are unaware of. He's only asking here how to approach it in the future, not about a past behaviour. Which makes it much more normal why he's not seeing the conflict of interest. He has a normal job now, is only thinking about doing this as a change of pace. As full time consultants, we are much more atune to the conflict of interest and see regularly where we would have been influenced had we accepted commissions. Because he does not (or not full time) I assume he is trying to imagine what the influence would be like or where it would happen.
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My business pitch was torn to shreds here prior to launch.
I can say it was painful, it was hurtful and it was bloody annoying to have all these internet forum warriors saying all this stuff.
After the initial feelings though, I went back and re-read, I considered, I re-evaluated and I can say that my presentation is now much much closer to what I WANTED to offer in the first place.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
ver something stupid like some account credits or a 20 spot.
I don't think anyone is calling you specifically corrupt salesman, not a real IT guy, but we are saying you're not a consultant.
You are a VAR, and there is NOTHING wrong with being a VAR, as long as everyone is aware that you are a VAR, and you're not calling yourself a consultant.
If I were a VAR I would just be selling my one product. But instead I do the work of consultant, researching many possible solutions and presenting them as options.
Why do you think that? CDW is a VAR and they sell everything.
Good example. Even local ones that are pretty small normally sell a decent range of things. But nearly all push the ones with the best commission structure at the time. CDW is specifically famous for that. They sell everything, but are still as far from neutral as can be.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
My view is that some affiliate programs are like picking up money on the sidewalk, it's just there, take it. Then you say, no, because you must take action before the money appears. Yes of course, I have to be walking down that particular sidewalk!
So my challenge is, I'm walking down that sidewalk anyway, I don't feel particularly righteous by stepping over the money and walking on my way.
If I find myself walking down that same sidewalk 80% of the time, some extra cash is a nice bonus.But the other 20% of the time.... what? You truly believe there is zero influence?
No, what I believe is that I can STILL come up with the best solution. Just because bias might exist, it doesn't mean it actually WILL change the outcome.
The 20% of the time the other sidewalk is a better fit, so be it. -
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
My view is that some affiliate programs are like picking up money on the sidewalk, it's just there, take it. Then you say, no, because you must take action before the money appears. Yes of course, I have to be walking down that particular sidewalk!
So my challenge is, I'm walking down that sidewalk anyway, I don't feel particularly righteous by stepping over the money and walking on my way.
If I find myself walking down that same sidewalk 80% of the time, some extra cash is a nice bonus.But the other 20% of the time.... what? You truly believe there is zero influence?
No, what I believe is that I can STILL come up with the best solution. Just because bias might exist, it doesn't mean it actually WILL change the outcome.
The 20% of the time the other sidewalk is a better fit, so be it.Now THAT might be true. There IS bias, but is it enough to influence the final decision? Only you can determine that. Only you know how much you will charge, how much you will get a commission and how much it will affect you. You can't argue that there isn't bias, you can only argue how much it biases you. Only you know that amount.
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https://mangolassi.it/post/76551
If you wanna see an epic screw up, read the first 2-3 replies.
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The advantage to our approach, of course, is that we never need to worry about what the client finds out or how we disclose it. We get zero commission. So we never need to defend it to ourselves or a client. Or consider the amount, as it is obviously zero.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
So my challenge is, I'm walking down that sidewalk anyway, I don't feel particularly righteous by stepping over the money and walking on my way.
But, as we pointed out, this is a totally false analogy and never does this happen. You never step over money until after you have done something to make it appear. The sidewalk analogy simply isn't true, but makes it sound better than it is. This analogy approach makes me feel like you are trying to convince yourself, not us, that the money is just lying there. Using it makes us feel even moreso that it is not.
Lol, but your assumption is that the ONLY POSSIBLE REASON for taking that sidewalk is TO MAKE the money appear in the first place.
Your absolutism about the bias is what I reject. There are MANY reasons one might take an action that makes the money appear, the last or least of which is purely for the money itself. -
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
So my challenge is, I'm walking down that sidewalk anyway, I don't feel particularly righteous by stepping over the money and walking on my way.
But, as we pointed out, this is a totally false analogy and never does this happen. You never step over money until after you have done something to make it appear. The sidewalk analogy simply isn't true, but makes it sound better than it is. This analogy approach makes me feel like you are trying to convince yourself, not us, that the money is just lying there. Using it makes us feel even moreso that it is not.
Lol, but your assumption is that the ONLY POSSIBLE REASON for taking that sidewalk is TO MAKE the money appear in the first place.
Your absolutism about the bias is what I reject. There are MANY reasons one might take an action that makes the money appear, the last or least of which is purely for the money itself.Nope, didn't even remotely suggest that. Not sure why you feel that I even imagined that let alone said it.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Your absolutism about the bias is what I reject. There are MANY reasons one might take an action that makes the money appear, the last or least of which is purely for the money itself.
That is because the bias is absolute. It really is. Unless you actively dislike money, which we logiced out for reasons before.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
ver something stupid like some account credits or a 20 spot.
I don't think anyone is calling you specifically corrupt salesman, not a real IT guy, but we are saying you're not a consultant.
You are a VAR, and there is NOTHING wrong with being a VAR, as long as everyone is aware that you are a VAR, and you're not calling yourself a consultant.
If I were a VAR I would just be selling my one product. But instead I do the work of consultant, researching many possible solutions and presenting them as options.
Why do you think that? CDW is a VAR and they sell everything.
The assumption was that if I have 5 favorite products but an affiliate of one of them, this magically makes me a VAR instead of consultant.
Well fine, splitting hairs on definitions, it's what nerds do.My push back is that the one single affiliate product in my toolbox does little to influence me. If I accept that there is 100% bias toward that product now, ok, but it doesn't mean at ALL that simple work ethic and morals won't win out the day. At the end of the day, I still only want to do what's best for the client, not myself.
Scott's situation is naturally far different from my own. They are a provider, there are many layers, employees, contractors, whatever. affiliations are impossible to deal with. Who gets the money? The business owner, the CEO? If he gets it, will that influence how he trains his consultants and pushes them? Will he offer additional incentives to push those? If the consultants themselves get it, then the CEO has to worry about all that bias and whether his company is really neutral about things, maybe he won't want to allow it?
In my case, or the case of one person with a name in the phone book, it's not as complicated. I'm not talking about $30k commissions from VMAX. I'm talking about web hosting or some cloud service or a product purchase link. Very small amounts to be sure, but not as influential as $30k might be.
Or in the case where I sell an off the shelf solution or "package". Something like "hosting + install + this + that" is all wrapped up with the "service" options built-in, affiliates included. They aren't paying for consultant, they are paying for the end result, as long as it works!So many different angles to this discussion. Absolutes should not be the conclusion. I think ethics, morals, controls, policies, etc, can mitigate simple bias.
I'm heading out so no more responses from me till tomorrow, should anybody care to continue. I guess this conversation has happened before so. Kicking up old issues.
