Weight Loss Surgery?
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Here is Spain, most crop production is not done via the top soil but in greenhouses. Although that is causes its own problems.
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There are entire countries in Africa where crop production is almost gone now because of GMO food. GMO food might be "more productive" but only by certain measurements. By others, it is unsustainable and has caused large portions of the world's crop production, in the regions most in need of it, to go fallow as it not only isn't self sustaining but destroys the natural crops as well.
Honestly, I think making a patented living thing should be a crime with penalties akin to murder. I truly believe anyone making GMOs should be taken out of society as what they are willing to do to people and our planet is unthinkable.
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@tonyshowoff said:
For me, veggies certainly help, but I'm really bad at eating them, because I'm just a picky eater, and I love really high (animal) fat foods, I smother my veggies in real butter, not only is it more filling, but it also gets me through to the other side. That and Tabasco sauce.
How about sprinkling some parmesan cheese on them (little goes a long way). Tastes awesome and not as high fat as tons of butter. Another alternative Mrs. Dash for flavoring with a little spray Coconut oil or Olive oil.
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@tonyshowoff I agree I think we are on the same side of the table. I would say we should sit down have a beer and a good old discussion about this where we both listen to each other, talk about it, and learn from each other. However, this is the internet so I will ignore your points and go on some huge off topic rant. (jk)
If you are ever in the middle of the US, I'd love to buy you that beer and we can discuss further.
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The new thing in Spain is that they have outstripped the region's water supply as they grow to many fruits to ship to the rest of Europe they are effectively bottling water (inside the fruit) and loading it on trains and shipping it away. So the water is leaving Spain at a tremendous pace. They are out of water for crops, it is a major issue. Greenhouses limit water loss but the amount shipped out increases as the efficiency increases.
What they are looking at here is large scale Mediterranean desalinization to be able to keep the crop production up in the desert regions where the greenhouses do so well.
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@scottalanmiller said:
There are entire countries in Africa where crop production is almost gone now because of GMO food. GMO food might be "more productive" but only by certain measurements. By others, it is unsustainable and has caused large portions of the world's crop production, in the regions most in need of it, to go fallow as it not only isn't self sustaining but destroys the natural crops as well.
Honestly, I think making a patented living thing should be a crime with penalties akin to murder. I truly believe anyone making GMOs should be taken out of society as what they are willing to do to people and our planet is unthinkable.
Bad farming practices destroy things way faster than any type of food, and planting the same things over and over has been known to be a bad idea in the US since the 1940s/50s, however in the developing world this isn't usually the case. I don't blame GMOs for those problems, but certainly one could blame the perception that the GMO crop was somehow capable of even the worse farming that lead to carelessness. If they did the same things with monocultural organic crops the same thing would've happened, especially if it's something that pulls nitrates out the soil like crazy, like corn.
Additionally the overuse of cloning constantly puts things on the edge of destruction.
A lot of what you say about GMOs sounds more like bad science coming out of anti-capitalist groups like Green Peace rather than reality. That isn't to say GMO is automatically good, in the same way large "organic" crops destroying the countryside with massive amounts of arsenic and other highly poisonous things.
Jumping to the conclusion that doing essentially the same thing as selective breeding, except faster is akin to murder is pretty alarmist and basically anti-science. In fact switching or off specific genes in a plant is more accurate than just regular selective breeding or pushing for genetic irregularities with radiation (more popular before GMOs, still used on wheat). Of course I'm not talking about wilder GMO attempts that have been made in labs and in test crops.
Bad farming practices and cloning have done a hell of lot more damage than any GMO, just look at the dust bawl, similar things still happen, just now anti-GMO people blame GMOs rather than the farmers.
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@tonyshowoff said:
A lot of what you say about GMOs sounds more like bad science coming out of anti-capitalist groups like Green Peace rather than reality.
The issue is.... it does not produce the seeds that they need for the next crop. They have to buy them, but they can't afford them. So the GMO food produces far, far less. They get the first bit of GMO'd product for free, it replaces the self-reproducing varieties and then when they need more seeds, they have none. No BS here, very, very simple business practices. Sure, the base problem is that the farmers don't know enough to stay away from American handouts, but they don't understand that corn can reproduce until it is too late.
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@tonyshowoff said:
Bad farming practices and cloning have done a hell of lot more damage than any GMO, just look at the dust bawl, similar things still happen, just now anti-GMO people blame GMOs rather than the farmers.
None of those eliminated whole crops in a single season. It's completely different.
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@tonyshowoff said:
Jumping to the conclusion that doing essentially the same thing as selective breeding, except faster is akin to murder is pretty alarmist and basically anti-science.
You'll notice what I felt should put people in jail is patenting life.
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@scottalanmiller Has that large reflective power generation system that uses steam taken off in Spain? I recall seeing a lot about that several years ago, but it seems fairly inefficient to me, but I don't know that much about it honestly, nuclear power on the other hand, well that's my wheel house, well sort of, after programming.
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Keep this on topic guys. Start another thread to talk about farming if you want.
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@tonyshowoff said:
@scottalanmiller Has that large reflective power generation system that uses steam taken off in Spain?
I haven't seen one, wind and hydro everywhere in the region I am in. It's mountains so those two are in abundance.
Reflective power to steam was in use in the US back when I was very little. I remember seeing it in elementary school. As far as I know, that works really well in desert areas. It's still built regularly.
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@scottalanmiller said:
None of those eliminated whole crops in a single season. It's completely different.
That goes into what I was saying about clones, especially nothing but clones.
You'll notice what I felt should put people in jail is patenting life.
Sorry, I misread that, but I do agree there that is really bizarre and I've always thought so, especially when it got into the realm of moving beyond plants into animals and the sexist animal of all, human.
Anyway, don't get weight loss surgery. Boom now it's an on topic post
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Just to give you my thoughts on the matter of weight loss, I think it's a hugely complicated situation that isn't completely explained yet.
Modern diet has created a lot of obesity that can't just be explained by saying that everyone has suddenly lost their will to stop eating.
There's a variety of factors that my reading shows play into it:
- The rise of processed food
- The rise of usage of high fructose corn syrup
- The hygiene hypothesis and it's effect on gut bacteria
- The influence of certain food chemicals on gut flora and how that impacts obesity
- The change in culture to a more sedentary one for most people
- The rise in usage of sugars of all kinds to make food more palatable
- The rise in usage of industrial seed oils to replace animal fats and healthful vegetable oils
- The rise in inflammatory diseases linked to many of the above factors
- Metabolic syndrome caused by increase in usage of certain plastics and the associated hormonal imbalances
- The rise in use of GMOs - the jury is still out on this one. I know there is a lot of research saying GMOs don't make people less healthy than non-GMOs, but they are only comparing that to a regular unhealthy modern diet, for the most part.
- The rise in usage of pesticides
- The changes to various staple foods through non-GMO means, such as breeding wheat to have more gluten and other changes
- The decrease in consumption of naturally fermented foods, such as sourdough being replaced by fast rising yeast breads
- Decrease in consumption of fish oils and other healthy oils leading to an imbalance of Omega 3 and Omega 6 levels
- Possible Vitamin D deficiency from less time outside and poor diet
- Mineral depletion in food from modern farming practices
The fact that all of these have occurred together makes it incredibly hard to tease out just which of these are important, and how much they each contribute. Or to find out if it is a combination of all of the above and the synergies of them working in concert.
That being said, my personal experience is that a combination of exercise, diet, good probiotic practices, and moving to a more whole foods and lower carb eating style can help almost anyone to drop some weight and improve their long term prospects.
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@Nic
I'd like some further clarification on some of the things you said, plus also I've mixed in some of my own opinions and I hope you humour me with reading them.- The rise of processed food
How is processed food bad? Most food is processed, except raw fruits and vegetables. Even organic stuff, I mean look at anything based on soy, or things like almond milk, etc. Unless this an Americanism I'm unfamiliar with that refers to some sort of specific process.
- The rise of usage of high fructose corn syrup
This breaks down the same way as regular sugar, but if you mean it's bad in the sense that it's much easier to consume way more of it, then I agree with you here.
#3 and #4 about gut flora
I've read a lot that this likely also has a huge influence on why so many people are so damn allergic to everything today, that and not going outside.
- The change in culture to a more sedentary one for most people
People bring up this one a lot, but consider that there were lawyers, bank tellers, accountants, etc who were essentially equally as sedentary way back when as now. The primary difference is, from what I've read, is that people consume about 500 more calories per day on average, but also about 150g - 200g more carbohydrates, i.e. sugar.
- The rise in usage of sugars of all kinds to make food more palatable
What's funny about this is that this usually happens because they remove the fat, because fat is considered bad, so they just put more sugar in it.
7 and 8
This is definitely one, as I've read some that would suggest hydrogenated oils which are promoted as being more healthy can actually inflame the cardiovascular system in similar manner to smoking
- Metabolic syndrome caused by increase in usage of certain plastics and the associated hormonal imbalances
I've not seen much direct hard evidence of this, and usually the hormonal imbalances associated with this and also bovine hormones for milk are more aptly explained by the rise in obesity.
- GMOs
The jury really isn't out on GMOs, they can grow more food, in less space, for cheaper, and they're controlling genes that already exist in the plants (for approved foods, not experimental examples often cited which people aren't even eating), they're also tested for sometimes years before approval, when organic cross breeding has no approval process so the suggested dangers of accidental allergens, etc are more realistically risky in organic farming than GMO farming.
There's a lot of fear mongering about this and it seems to be more related to "natural" is good, even though selective breeding over a long period of time can also create similar results, there just isn't enough time, both from a capitalist perspective and also from a 7+ billion people eating perspective. However, I will say the lack of diversity is an issue, as even the cloned banana sits on the edge of being destroyed by a fungus because they're all the same. Getting rid of gene patenting, I think, would encourage diversity since there'd be no benefit to fitting within a patent.
- The rise in usage of pesticides
There's no choice here either, before modern pesticides even the Netherlands had famines, thank science those days are gone, now they're some of the fattest people in Europe.
- The changes to various staple foods through non-GMO means, such as breeding wheat to have more gluten and other changes
This is another necessary thing, because without it many people would starve, and would have starved if not for these advancements. However, I contend this is more dangerous than GMOs. With GMOs we know what genes we're turning off and on, but with radiation + cross breeding, it's even more shooting in the dark, and could definitely cause allergy problems, especially with how sensative people are now.
- The decrease in consumption of naturally fermented foods, such as sourdough being replaced by fast rising yeast breads
OMFG, I love sourdough bread, I hate that I'm off bread mostly, but when I do eat it, and it's not pizza, it's sourdough. Great, now I can't stop thinking about sourdough.
- Decrease in consumption of fish oils and other healthy oils leading to an imbalance of Omega 3 and Omega 6 levels
Agreed, supplements help, and also they've found ways to get it into eggs, but the problem is that people often consider eggs to be some sort of heart attack pill, but eating wheat bread is fine. If the modern diet was better, I can't imagine even people who "eat healthy" would be so unhealthy, compared to people who used to "eat unhealthy" being healthier than people today. Seems sorta backwards.
- Possible Vitamin D deficiency from less time outside and poor diet
When I was a kid people would come to my school and give us some sort of milk with tons of vitamin D in it. Anyway, I take supplements today, but skin tone has a lot to do with ability to intake Vitamin D.
- Mineral depletion in food from modern farming practices
Ironically things like wheat flour have tons of things added now, especially in the US to make up for what's lost/lacking elsewhere.
That being said, my personal experience is that a combination of exercise, diet, good probiotic practices, and moving to a more whole foods and lower carb eating style can help almost anyone to drop some weight and improve their long term prospects.
I agree with you on lower carb for sure (see my story post above), but suggesting exercise and diet is unclear, especially because exercise to most people means things like running and walking which are very crappy ways to burn calories, instead of lifting weights which works a lot better. Second when it comes to diet, a lot of people consider the food pyramid/plate/whatever to be the best, but that's about 300g of carbs per day, when even for a lot of people 100g is probably too much, and also not enough protein.
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Speaking of not processing things. One of the things that they do in much of the US is put crap in the water. We get to drink right out of the mountain streams here! Best water ever.
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@scottalanmiller Having been back and spoiled with awesome tap water again I can't go back to bottled. Good water is very important.
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I never did bottled. But this is all natural tap water. It's awesome.
And just one town over, the bottle the stream water. It's the largest water bottling location in the country.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Speaking of not processing things. One of the things that they do in much of the US is put crap in the water. We get to drink right out of the mountain streams here! Best water ever.
I drink only sea water, it's hell on my kidneys, but I live with my choices
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@tonyshowoff said:
@Nic
I'd like some further clarification on some of the things you said, plus also I've mixed in some of my own opinions and I hope you humour me with reading them.- The rise of processed food
How is processed food bad? Most food is processed, except raw fruits and vegetables. Even organic stuff, I mean look at anything based on soy, or things like almond milk, etc. Unless this an Americanism I'm unfamiliar with that refers to some sort of specific process.
- The rise of usage of high fructose corn syrup
This breaks down the same way as regular sugar, but if you mean it's bad in the sense that it's much easier to consume way more of it, then I agree with you here.
#3 and #4 about gut flora
I've read a lot that this likely also has a huge influence on why so many people are so damn allergic to everything today, that and not going outside.
- The change in culture to a more sedentary one for most people
People bring up this one a lot, but consider that there were lawyers, bank tellers, accountants, etc who were essentially equally as sedentary way back when as now. The primary difference is, from what I've read, is that people consume about 500 more calories per day on average, but also about 150g - 200g more carbohydrates, i.e. sugar.
- The rise in usage of sugars of all kinds to make food more palatable
What's funny about this is that this usually happens because they remove the fat, because fat is considered bad, so they just put more sugar in it.
7 and 8
This is definitely one, as I've read some that would suggest hydrogenated oils which are promoted as being more healthy can actually inflame the cardiovascular system in similar manner to smoking
- Metabolic syndrome caused by increase in usage of certain plastics and the associated hormonal imbalances
I've not seen much direct hard evidence of this, and usually the hormonal imbalances associated with this and also bovine hormones for milk are more aptly explained by the rise in obesity.
- GMOs
The jury really isn't out on GMOs, they can grow more food, in less space, for cheaper, and they're controlling genes that already exist in the plants (for approved foods, not experimental examples often cited which people aren't even eating), they're also tested for sometimes years before approval, when organic cross breeding has no approval process so the suggested dangers of accidental allergens, etc are more realistically risky in organic farming than GMO farming.
There's a lot of fear mongering about this and it seems to be more related to "natural" is good, even though selective breeding over a long period of time can also create similar results, there just isn't enough time, both from a capitalist perspective and also from a 7+ billion people eating perspective. However, I will say the lack of diversity is an issue, as even the cloned banana sits on the edge of being destroyed by a fungus because they're all the same. Getting rid of gene patenting, I think, would encourage diversity since there'd be no benefit to fitting within a patent.
- The rise in usage of pesticides
There's no choice here either, before modern pesticides even the Netherlands had famines, thank science those days are gone, now they're some of the fattest people in Europe.
- The changes to various staple foods through non-GMO means, such as breeding wheat to have more gluten and other changes
This is another necessary thing, because without it many people would starve, and would have starved if not for these advancements. However, I contend this is more dangerous than GMOs. With GMOs we know what genes we're turning off and on, but with radiation + cross breeding, it's even more shooting in the dark, and could definitely cause allergy problems, especially with how sensative people are now.
- The decrease in consumption of naturally fermented foods, such as sourdough being replaced by fast rising yeast breads
OMFG, I love sourdough bread, I hate that I'm off bread mostly, but when I do eat it, and it's not pizza, it's sourdough. Great, now I can't stop thinking about sourdough.
- Decrease in consumption of fish oils and other healthy oils leading to an imbalance of Omega 3 and Omega 6 levels
Agreed, supplements help, and also they've found ways to get it into eggs, but the problem is that people often consider eggs to be some sort of heart attack pill, but eating wheat bread is fine. If the modern diet was better, I can't imagine even people who "eat healthy" would be so unhealthy, compared to people who used to "eat unhealthy" being healthier than people today. Seems sorta backwards.
- Possible Vitamin D deficiency from less time outside and poor diet
When I was a kid people would come to my school and give us some sort of milk with tons of vitamin D in it. Anyway, I take supplements today, but skin tone has a lot to do with ability to intake Vitamin D.
- Mineral depletion in food from modern farming practices
Ironically things like wheat flour have tons of things added now, especially in the US to make up for what's lost/lacking elsewhere.
That being said, my personal experience is that a combination of exercise, diet, good probiotic practices, and moving to a more whole foods and lower carb eating style can help almost anyone to drop some weight and improve their long term prospects.
I agree with you on lower carb for sure (see my story post above), but suggesting exercise and diet is unclear, especially because exercise to most people means things like running and walking which are very crappy ways to burn calories, instead of lifting weights which works a lot better. Second when it comes to diet, a lot of people consider the food pyramid/plate/whatever to be the best, but that's about 300g of carbs per day, when even for a lot of people 100g is probably too much, and also not enough protein.
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I'm talking about heavily processed and the rise of engineered foods that have a lot of chemicals in them
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Actually it doesn't break down the same way - there's lots of research showing that it affects the body differently
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Again, we have a lot more labor saving devices than people did 20 or 30 years ago. Plus the ratio of people in labor intensive jobs to sedentary ones have changed.
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Good point on hormones and antibiotics in food. I forgot about that one. Most people know that animals are fed antibiotics not to keep them healthy, but to make them gain weight faster. Those antibiotics end up in the animal, and guess what, they might have the same effect on humans.
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The jury is still out simply because they haven't been around long enough. All we can say right now is that we haven't yet found any adverse effects in animal models. There have not been humans alive who have eaten GMOs for their entire lives, so we can't eliminate the possibility of adverse effects. Also, it's impossible to prove a negative.
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Of course there is a choice - there's a choice about population control, and there are ways to feed the entire population without so much pesticide use. We just choose not to because it is cheaper not to.
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There was plenty of food before GMOs. It isn't like the world was starving before that was invented.
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Fortified flour just has a couple minerals in it - there's plenty of minerals that aren't added in after. Plus you have to have cofactors found in real food to aid in absorption of said minerals and vitamins. It isn't enough just to take a pill.
