How Often Is a Degree a Negative
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Martin9700 said:
Did it help me get my first job in IT? Yes. I also wasn't 10's of thousands of dollars in debt so I'd say the program worked.
Personally I would defined "worked" only if it was able to get you into your first job sooner than an alternative approach. What if you had been teaching yourself and job hunting during the time you were in college.... could you have gotten a job sooner that way? People who go to college them get a job always say that the job helped them to get that first job, and sometimes surely that is true. But they rarely consider the cost of lost opportunity and wonder if they had not gone to college if that would have helped them to get a different first job sooner.
Well, kind of difficult to measure that one, tbh. But in those days getting into mainframe operations required you know some things about mainframes. It wasn't an industry that said, gee you can fix a PC (who had PC's?) I'll give you a shot. It was just a different time.
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@Martin9700 said:
Well, kind of difficult to measure that one, tbh. But in those days getting into mainframe operations required you know some things about mainframes. It wasn't an industry that said, gee you can fix a PC (who had PC's?) I'll give you a shot. It was just a different time.
Very true. Although I got into computers in the 1980s when it was not all that much different and I was working for a Fortune 100 in middle school. Yeah, it was a lucky break to be sure. But those opportunities were there. My dad didn't go to school for computers, he fell into it when the company needed him to do that.
There was certainly a time when universities were gateways to the technology. But since the 1970s I don't think that that has been that big of a deal. Universities used to gateway chemistry jobs too, but not anymore. You can, for very little money, create a home lab far superior to a college lab and get more experience than if you went to college and do it in high school too.
Most fields have a time where universities gatekept access to their resources. One by one they have dropped away. Some remain, but IT isn't one of them.
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It would be interesting to see a study done where the Top 500 companies are interviewed and see how many of their HR departments just circular file non college degree resumes.
@scottalanmiller seems to be implying that most of them don't care about degrees anymore, I'm not so ready to believe that.
Of course I'm only talking in relation to IT.
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@Dashrender said:
It would be interesting to see a study done where the Top 500 companies are interviewed and see how many of their HR departments just circular file non college degree resumes.
Problem is, HR will tell you one thing because they don't know how much hiring bypasses them. I've done a lot of Fortune 500 work, never had HR involved in the hiring filtering. Not once. SMB talks about that a lot, but I've never seen it in the enterprise. Ever.
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Some places that I know don't have HR in-line disrupting hiring include CitiGroup, Goldman Sachs, Credit Suisse, BNP Peribas, several top 20 hedge funds, Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft, eBay / PayPal, IBM, Barclays, SquarePoint, etc. It's a small sampling, but it is 100% no-HR interference. But I bet a lot of them would say otherwise if you asked HR.
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That's awesome, but then how do you get your resume in front of the hiring manager? are you limited to only head hunters?
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@Dashrender said:
That's awesome, but then how do you get your resume in front of the hiring manager? are you limited to only head hunters?
This seems like a, "It's not what you know, it's who you know.", situation.
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@coliver said:
@Dashrender said:
That's awesome, but then how do you get your resume in front of the hiring manager? are you limited to only head hunters?
This seems like a, "It's not what you know, it's who you know.", situation.
Sigh! exactly! so if you're stuck going through normal channels you have little chance of ever getting these sweet gigs that Scott's received.
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Do you not know how to google and find who is in what postition at a company. Find their information then contact them.
Most of the jobs I've come across waiting a masters some even a bacholers pay much less than those not looking for it.
Actually my last job when looking for my replacement required a bacholers because of how much more advanced the network was after I redid it. Which makes no sense why they jump to that conclusion as I'm the one who configured and installed it. They also lowered the pay by about $12,000 a year.
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@thecreativeone91 said:
Do you not know how to google and find who is in what postition at a company. Find their information then contact them.
Most of the jobs I've come across waiting a masters some even a bacholers pay much less than those not looking for it.
Actually my last job when looking for my replacement required a bacholers because of how much more advanced the network was after I redid it. Which makes no sense why they jump to that conclusion as I'm the one who configured and installed it. They also lowered the pay by about $12,000 a year.
LOL lower the pay and increased the requirements... just WOW!
And of course I know how to Google a person - for those that are listed. My thinking though must be fractured - if I see a posting for a job online, the contact information is either going to be for HR, or for the hiring manager. If it's for HR, then I would assume (perhaps incorrectly) that HR is a required involved department in that company to get that job. End arounding HR and trying to determine who the hiring manager is and contacting them directly seems, wrong. If it's the hiring manager, then I don't need to even bother searching, well, because it's right there.
If the job isn't posted as an opening... how do you find out about them? Usually it's because you've found yourself connected with a decent headhunter who knows those hiring managers and they tell you about the new opportunities.
I suppose there's always the shot in the dark, just cold sending your resume to hiring managers for companies you like to see if they have any openings.
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@Dashrender said:
If the job isn't posted as an opening... how do you find out about them? Usually it's because you've found yourself connected with a decent headhunter who knows those hiring managers and they tell you about the new opportunities.
Head hunters. I know of very few good jobs placed through ads. It's not how anyone works anymore.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
If the job isn't posted as an opening... how do you find out about them? Usually it's because you've found yourself connected with a decent headhunter who knows those hiring managers and they tell you about the new opportunities.
Head hunters. I know of very few good jobs placed through ads. It's not how anyone works anymore.
Apparently I need to start finding some good head hunters....
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Strangely, I can't get headhunters to hang out in a social community. A huge market is being missed.
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I always send hand written letters to hiring managers. Sure they might have to get HR involved. but, HR is just advise and there for the process most of the time. It's the managers final say and even if not they have a lot of pull with HR.
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@thecreativeone91 said:
I always send hand written letters to hiring managers. Sure they might have to get HR involved. but, HR is just advise and there for the process most of the time. It's the managers final say and even if not they have a lot of pull with HR.
Yes, I've always had HR get involved but only at the end, just to do background checks and that sort of stuff. HR does the final offer, but the hiring manager makes the call.
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@coliver said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
If the job isn't posted as an opening... how do you find out about them? Usually it's because you've found yourself connected with a decent headhunter who knows those hiring managers and they tell you about the new opportunities.
Head hunters. I know of very few good jobs placed through ads. It's not how anyone works anymore.
Apparently I need to start finding some good head hunters....
Ditto.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@thecreativeone91 said:
I always send hand written letters to hiring managers. Sure they might have to get HR involved. but, HR is just advise and there for the process most of the time. It's the managers final say and even if not they have a lot of pull with HR.
Yes, I've always had HR get involved but only at the end, just to do background checks and that sort of stuff. HR does the final offer, but the hiring manager makes the call.
A huge local tech company, West Corporation, is just stuck in the dark ages. They don't use head hunters - who wants to pay the 25% fee of the total compensation package to someone because you found me a body, and before you respond.. yes I know the benefits of head hunters... start another topic if you'd like
- HR controls who is and isn't hired. Short of a VP getting involved.. if the job description says degree required.. it's required, no matter what! -
@Dashrender said:
A huge local tech company, West Corporation, is just stuck in the dark ages. They don't use head hunters - who wants to pay the 25% fee of the total compensation package to someone because you found me a body, and before you respond.. yes I know the benefits of head hunters... start another topic if you'd like
- HR controls who is and isn't hired. Short of a VP getting involved.. if the job description says degree required.. it's required, no matter what!Never heard of them. How big are they? HR might control things there, but that's rare and how you kow a company isn't a good one to work for.
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Well obviously not that big as they aren't part of the Fortune 100. They are 787 in the Fortune 1000.
