Follow along with Scott, Emily, Madeline, & Dominica on the Grand Tour of Europe 2
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@scottalanmiller said in Follow along with Scott, Emily, Madeline, & Dominica on the Grand Tour of Europe 2:
talian immigrant is used to refer to people for many generations. My wife and kids are considered Italian immigrants in many cases, but have been here for several generations. But in their case, are also still legally Italians, so that muddies the point.
I'm just going by the normal meaning man... no need to read in to it and make up context.
If someone says to me: "That guy over there is an Italian immigrant", I'm going to base my understanding of that off of the regular normal meaning and definition that he is from Italy and not born in the US. I will have no reason to believe he was born here and that his family has been here for x generations.
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@Obsolesce said in Follow along with Scott, Emily, Madeline, & Dominica on the Grand Tour of Europe 2:
I'm just going by the normal meaning man... no need to read in to it and make up context.
If someone says to me: "That guy over there is an Italian immigrant", I'm going to base my understanding of that off of the regular normal meaning and definition that he is from Italy and not born in the US. I will have no reason to believe he was born here and that his family has been here for x generations.That's not what a LOT of people mean. Mirriam Webster even has that a first generation immigrant doesn't imply that someone is born outside of the US. And normal people use immigrant NORMALLY to mean children of immigrants. All the time.
If someone in the US told you someone was an Italian immigrant, it would be reckless to assume that they meant that they were born in Italy. The average person that would be called that, would have been born in the US.
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@Obsolesce the way you are defining the word is how it is used in most countries. Once people are settled in a place for more than a generation, they stop calling them immigrants. But in the US, that's not the most common usage.
And in an article like the wikipedia one, since they don't know the actual person who made the stromboli but only that they were part of a community likely descended from Italy, we know that they have to be using it in the US "anyone whose heritage came from" sense and can't possibly use it in the "was the person themselves who moved over" sense by context. You can only know the later, if you know the person specifically. When used in the way that they used it, it always means the larger grouping.
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@scottalanmiller said in Follow along with Scott, Emily, Madeline, & Dominica on the Grand Tour of Europe 2:
Mirriam Webster even has that a first generation immigrant doesn't imply that someone is born outside of the US.
WTF are you talking about?
(Miriram Webster):
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@Obsolesce sorry, the reference was OED, ... (supposedly, the OED is paid and this is quoted by WIkipedia)
"designating a member of the first (or second, etc.) generation of a family to do something or live somewhere; spec. designating a naturalized immigrant or a descendant of immigrant parents, esp. in the United States"
Wikipedia: "There is no universal consensus on which of these meanings is always intended."
So Wikipedia documents itself in this case.
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@scottalanmiller said in Follow along with Scott, Emily, Madeline, & Dominica on the Grand Tour of Europe 2:
@Obsolesce sorry, the reference was OED, ... (supposedly, the OED is paid and this is quoted by WIkipedia)
"designating a member of the first (or second, etc.) generation of a family to do something or live somewhere; spec. designating a naturalized immigrant or a descendant of immigrant parents, esp. in the United States"
Wikipedia: "There is no universal consensus on which of these meanings is always intended."
So Wikipedia documents itself in this case.
Oh I see, that makes sense.
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Here we go, part of the reference is here, which is linked by DuoLingo to Oxford that redirects to Lexico, and doesn't contain the part of hte quote that I want, but does show the conflict, lol...
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Heading up to Montecatini Alto for some dinner.
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@Obsolesce also to complicate matters WAY further....
If an American is born abroad, and brought back to the US, they are NOT considered immigrants. But if they stayed where they were born, they would be considered immigrants. Even though they were born there, often.
Italians stay Italians forever, in many cases. With Italy recognizing citizenship indefinitely. So for example, my wife is the daughter of an Italian citizen. So in some contexts, she herself is an immigrant, even having been born in the US. No one uses it that way, but Italians specifically have this complexity that most countries do not.
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@scottalanmiller said in Follow along with Scott, Emily, Madeline, & Dominica on the Grand Tour of Europe 2:
@Obsolesce also to complicate matters WAY further....
If an American is born abroad, and brought back to the US, they are NOT considered immigrants. But if they stayed where they were born, they would be considered immigrants. Even though they were born there, often.
Italians stay Italians forever, in many cases. With Italy recognizing citizenship indefinitely. So for example, my wife is the daughter of an Italian citizen. So in some contexts, she herself is an immigrant, even having been born in the US. No one uses it that way, but Italians specifically have this complexity that most countries do not.
That's because there is a difference between being "born abroad", as in on vacation or on a short residency, and simply born in a different country than your parents because they had emigrated.
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@scottalanmiller said in Follow along with Scott, Emily, Madeline, & Dominica on the Grand Tour of Europe 2:
Heading up to Montecatini Alto for some dinner.
That's a nice place!
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@Obsolesce said in Follow along with Scott, Emily, Madeline, & Dominica on the Grand Tour of Europe 2:
@scottalanmiller said in Follow along with Scott, Emily, Madeline, & Dominica on the Grand Tour of Europe 2:
@Obsolesce also to complicate matters WAY further....
If an American is born abroad, and brought back to the US, they are NOT considered immigrants. But if they stayed where they were born, they would be considered immigrants. Even though they were born there, often.
Italians stay Italians forever, in many cases. With Italy recognizing citizenship indefinitely. So for example, my wife is the daughter of an Italian citizen. So in some contexts, she herself is an immigrant, even having been born in the US. No one uses it that way, but Italians specifically have this complexity that most countries do not.
That's because there is a difference between being "born abroad", as in on vacation or on a short residency, and simply born in a different country than your parents because they had emigrated.
There is, definitely. But it makes the concepts murky. Like my kids were birn abroad to Italian parents. But are Americans. But are often called immigrants.
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Only one full day left after today before we had back to the USofA.
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@scottalanmiller said in Follow along with Scott, Emily, Madeline, & Dominica on the Grand Tour of Europe 2:
Only one full day left after today before we had back to the USofA.
Are you ready to get back?
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@Obsolesce said in Follow along with Scott, Emily, Madeline, & Dominica on the Grand Tour of Europe 2:
@scottalanmiller said in Follow along with Scott, Emily, Madeline, & Dominica on the Grand Tour of Europe 2:
Only one full day left after today before we had back to the USofA.
Are you ready to get back?
Yeah. I want to stay in Spain, of course, but we are worn out from the constant "travel" and I really miss my kids. Going to be "traveling" in NY for the next three weeks, though.
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@scottalanmiller said in Follow along with Scott, Emily, Madeline, & Dominica on the Grand Tour of Europe 2:
@Obsolesce said in Follow along with Scott, Emily, Madeline, & Dominica on the Grand Tour of Europe 2:
@scottalanmiller said in Follow along with Scott, Emily, Madeline, & Dominica on the Grand Tour of Europe 2:
Only one full day left after today before we had back to the USofA.
Are you ready to get back?
Yeah. I want to stay in Spain, of course, but we are worn out from the constant "travel" and I really miss my kids. Going to be "traveling" in NY for the next three weeks, though.
Where are the kids?
