Virt-manager: IDE disks
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I love the idea of agentless, it's great. But it's only an idea in this case. And one that honestly, isn't important at all. Sure, conceptually it is neat, but that's all that it is. From a business or technical perspective, it's just a pointless thing that only sounds cool because we improperly use the term "agentless" even though there is an agent. Even the title of the category is engineered to invoke an emotional reaction, and it works.
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So, now that you know that there isn't an option for a working agentless backup for KVM... do you want to go with a non-working backup system that you can't claim to really be a backup, or do you want to pursue something that can actually take what is considered a backup by the industry to protect the workloads? What is the end goal that you are trying to achieve?
I realize that in a lab, playing with anything is fun. But this would be considered a waste of resources to focus on something that conceptually can't be deployed in any real world scenario.
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@scottalanmiller said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
Since KVM doesn't support working agentless today (outside of very specialty systems like Scale HC3)
https://www.hycu.com/backup-and-recovery/backup-recovery-for-nutanix/
https://www.vprotect.io/
https://www.trilio.io/triliovault/ -
@FATeknollogee said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
@scottalanmiller said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
Since KVM doesn't support working agentless today (outside of very specialty systems like Scale HC3)
https://www.hycu.com/backup-and-recovery/backup-recovery-for-nutanix/
https://www.vprotect.io/
https://www.trilio.io/triliovault/Why are you listing those? We've already looked at vProtect and we know from their own site that they don't take a working backup. So what's your goal in listing these?
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@scottalanmiller said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
@FATeknollogee said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
@scottalanmiller said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
Since KVM doesn't support working agentless today (outside of very specialty systems like Scale HC3)
https://www.hycu.com/backup-and-recovery/backup-recovery-for-nutanix/
https://www.vprotect.io/
https://www.trilio.io/triliovault/Why are you listing those? We've already looked at vProtect and we know from their own site that they don't take a working backup. So what's your goal in listing these?
You said Scale was the only one that had KVM "agentless"?
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@FATeknollogee said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
This is for Nova only, from their website AFAICT. So doesn't apply to KVM. It requires an entire custom storage layer, and then can talk to the hypervisor.
That's no different from Scale HC3.
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@scottalanmiller said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
@FATeknollogee said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
This is for Nova only, from their website AFAICT. So doesn't apply to KVM. It requires an entire custom storage layer, and then can talk to the hypervisor.
That's no different from Scale HC3.
No...https://www.trilio.io/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/TrilioVault-for-RHV.pdf
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@FATeknollogee said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
@scottalanmiller said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
@FATeknollogee said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
@scottalanmiller said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
Since KVM doesn't support working agentless today (outside of very specialty systems like Scale HC3)
https://www.hycu.com/backup-and-recovery/backup-recovery-for-nutanix/
https://www.vprotect.io/
https://www.trilio.io/triliovault/Why are you listing those? We've already looked at vProtect and we know from their own site that they don't take a working backup. So what's your goal in listing these?
You said Scale was the only one that had KVM "agentless"?
That works. HYCU requires that you replace KVM, as does Scale. Yes what they use is based on KVM, but it isn't just KVM. It's a custom new product made from KVM.
And vProtect doesn't take working backups (they state it at least half a dozen times on their site just from a casual look.)
Trilio can work only with OpenStack and only using Nova and beyond that, I've not researched if it can still work with just KVM.
The point being, none of these come close to meeting the criteria of being able to take a backup of KVM's VMs themselves. They all require either KVM to be replaced, or a storage layer that they use so that direct KVM would fail, or don't make working backups.
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@FATeknollogee said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
@scottalanmiller said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
@FATeknollogee said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
This is for Nova only, from their website AFAICT. So doesn't apply to KVM. It requires an entire custom storage layer, and then can talk to the hypervisor.
That's no different from Scale HC3.
No...https://www.trilio.io/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/TrilioVault-for-RHV.pdf
Interesting, maybe they've done enough work to make it work. It would be awesome if someone had done this, but vProtect is extremely open that they have not.
Has anyone looked into Trilio enough to know if their backups are safe?
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@scottalanmiller said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
@FATeknollogee said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
@scottalanmiller said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
@FATeknollogee said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
This is for Nova only, from their website AFAICT. So doesn't apply to KVM. It requires an entire custom storage layer, and then can talk to the hypervisor.
That's no different from Scale HC3.
No...https://www.trilio.io/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/TrilioVault-for-RHV.pdf
Interesting, maybe they've done enough work to make it work. It would be awesome if someone had done this, but vProtect is extremely open that they have not.
Has anyone looked into Trilio enough to know if their backups are safe?
Trilio is the co from here https://mangolassi.it/post/448935
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@FATeknollogee said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
@scottalanmiller said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
@FATeknollogee said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
@scottalanmiller said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
@FATeknollogee said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
This is for Nova only, from their website AFAICT. So doesn't apply to KVM. It requires an entire custom storage layer, and then can talk to the hypervisor.
That's no different from Scale HC3.
No...https://www.trilio.io/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/TrilioVault-for-RHV.pdf
Interesting, maybe they've done enough work to make it work. It would be awesome if someone had done this, but vProtect is extremely open that they have not.
Has anyone looked into Trilio enough to know if their backups are safe?
Trilio is the co from here https://mangolassi.it/post/448935
https://www.trilio.io/triliovault/
According to their RHV information page, it sounds like Nova is required for this, too. It's not super clear.
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@FATeknollogee said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
@scottalanmiller said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
@FATeknollogee said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
@scottalanmiller said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
@FATeknollogee said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
This is for Nova only, from their website AFAICT. So doesn't apply to KVM. It requires an entire custom storage layer, and then can talk to the hypervisor.
That's no different from Scale HC3.
No...https://www.trilio.io/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/TrilioVault-for-RHV.pdf
Interesting, maybe they've done enough work to make it work. It would be awesome if someone had done this, but vProtect is extremely open that they have not.
Has anyone looked into Trilio enough to know if their backups are safe?
Trilio is the co from here https://mangolassi.it/post/448935
Ah, sounds like they never made the product. Maybe it will come soon. But from looking at their website, it appears to be something they are might be preparing to make, but don't have yet? Their RHV information definitely states that it is RHV on top of Nova (OpenStack storage layer) and that it is Nova doing the work to make it possible.
Which if you do a KVM based OpenStack deployment, it is possible to take backups for workloads on KVM, but it's not a backup of KVM as people mean it - meaning you can't just have a KVM based system and take a backup. It's an OpenStack system and if it also has KVM, that's not a problem.
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Why is OpenStack / Nova keep showing up in this discussion?
Because the issue is that KVM lacks CBT (Change Block Tracking) which is the only currently working way to make an agentless backup system work. Without it, backups that don't have an agent are only crash consistent and are expected to lose data, randomly not boot, etc.
OpenStack's Raksha layer provides CBT for the OS ecosystem. This is not done in KVM, but at the storage layer of the cloud infrastructure. Raksha is primarily available for Nova (and Cinder to a lesser extend.) So if you are using Nova, and you have the Raksha layer, then companies like Trilio can use Raksha to build a working agentless backup system.
That backup system would work regardless of the hypervisor running on top of the stack, so Xen, KVM, whatever. So is there a specific way to make it work with KVM, yes. Is it a KVM backup, no.
So you can have scenarios, like OpenStack or Scale HC3 where you get what you need. But it doesn't apply to RHV / oVirt scenarios.
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This is why agentless for KVM and Xen never come up on the radar, it's essentially in the "theory" stages. But it isn't a big deal, because the whole agentless thing is really just a weird sales tactic in the VMware / Hyper-V space from the era when they were trying to convince people to go virtual and so they made up weird benefits and made them sound way more important than they were. In the Xen and KVM space (which is older, at least for Xen), no one really ever cared much as agent based backups were pre-existing, fit more general use cases, and often worked better. So the desire for CBT and agentless systems never really arose.
That's not to say that people don't want it, they do. But they tend to see it as pretty inconsequential. Lacking it doesn't hurt those ecosystems in any way.
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How for what vProtect does, you can just take a snapshot and you don't need any tool. Crash consistent "backups" take no effort.
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@FATeknollogee said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
Am I dreaming or IDE disks are not supported any more?
I could have sworn IDE disks used to be in Virt-manager, now I can't find them!!Even with the latest version, its still there. It depends on the selection when you choose a template based on the OS you are installing. Pretty much IDE bus type is for compatibility purposes now.
If you were creating a VM, you either select "Generic default (default)" where it says, Choose the operating system you are installing, select
"Generic default (default)".If you were importing an VM that is using IDE, when choosing the operating system you are installing, search
genericand select"Generic default (default)" -
@black3dynamite said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
@FATeknollogee said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
Am I dreaming or IDE disks are not supported any more?
I could have sworn IDE disks used to be in Virt-manager, now I can't find them!!Even with the latest version, its still there. It depends on the selection when you choose a template based on the OS you are installing. Pretty much IDE bus type is for compatibility purposes now.
If you were creating a VM, you either select "Generic default (default)" where it says, Choose the operating system you are installing, select
"Generic default (default)".If you were importing an VM that is using IDE, when choosing the operating system you are installing, search
genericand select"Generic default (default)"You da man, thx :thumbs_up: :thumbs_up:
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Why would you even want IDE? Are you running a weird guest OS that doesn't support virtio?
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@dyasny said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
Why would you even want IDE? Are you running a weird guest OS that doesn't support virtio?
I wouldn't want IDE.
The download (an ova file) came that way, the vendor exported it from ESXi -
@dyasny said in Virt-manager: IDE disks:
Why would you even want IDE? Are you running a weird guest OS that doesn't support virtio?
It's for testing only. I pushed on that, too.
