Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice
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@DustinB3403 said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
Employment contracts aren't normal in the US. Those are "Contract Employees" and do exist but are different from normal hire situations.
It's the same here in Canada, a "contract" employee is a freelancer or an incorporated individual, usually, simply sending invoices every month. But a full-time employee also has a contract to sign - terms of employment, hours, benefits, salary - all of that has to be documented and signed.
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@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@scottalanmiller in Canada two weeks are in most provincial employment legislations (haven't checked them all). But if your contract says 4 weeks, it takes precedence.
Most of the US is "at will" and supersedes any contracts. Employment can't be "at contact" for normal workers.
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@scottalanmiller said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
Most of the US is "at will" and supersedes any contracts. Employment can't be "at contact" for normal workers.
OK, that's just weird
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@scottalanmiller said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@scottalanmiller said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
That's pretty rare. Also you aren't in the US.
I've been mostly working for US companies though. But you are right, there are reasons I don't want to live in the US
And it is the US that has the assumption of the two weeks number. Other countries have different customs. In the US, it borders on a legal thing, it is so strict and common.
borders - but it not a legal thing.
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@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@scottalanmiller said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
Most of the US is "at will" and supersedes any contracts. Employment can't be "at contact" for normal workers.
OK, that's just weird
What's weird is the need for a contract for normal workers.
Our 'contracts' are just verbal - and fluid. If at any time one side or the other is unhappy... employment can be terminated - just walk away.
Of course those who hide behind the - oh they can't fire me/redundant me without paying me some money.. that's not good for the business.
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@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
What's weird is the need for a contract for normal workers.
Our 'contracts' are just verbal - and fluid. If at any time one side or the other is unhappy... employment can be terminated - just walk away.
Of course those who hide behind the - oh they can't fire me/redundant me without paying me some money.. that's not good for the business.
It isn't about hiding behind anything, it's about protecting the employee and employer from each other. If you have no document stating what your job is, what's stopping the employer from telling you to wash the toilets one day, instead of doing your job? And what's stopping you from grabbing the employers' confidential data and running to the competition? NDA's and job descriptions are a typical part of any normal contract, and I mean "contract" as a document describing the employer-employee relationship, not necessarily with an outside contractor, but also with a full or part time employee. If you want to call that document by another name - please feel free to do so
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@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
What's weird is the need for a contract for normal workers.
Our 'contracts' are just verbal - and fluid. If at any time one side or the other is unhappy... employment can be terminated - just walk away.
Of course those who hide behind the - oh they can't fire me/redundant me without paying me some money.. that's not good for the business.
It isn't about hiding behind anything, it's about protecting the employee and employer from each other. If you have no document stating what your job is, what's stopping the employer from telling you to wash the toilets one day, instead of doing your job?
In many if not most job descriptions in the US, it includes "additional duties as assigned." So yes, that means they can ask - and require - you to clean toilets... is that somehow beneath you?
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@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
And what's stopping you from grabbing the employers' confidential data and running to the competition?
The law is what stops you from doing this - at least legally.
NDA's and job descriptions are a typical part of any normal contract, and I mean "contract" as a document describing the employer-employee relationship, not necessarily with an outside contractor, but also with a full or part time employee. If you want to call that document by another name - please feel free to do so
There typically is a piece of paper with this information on it - but it's not a signed thing generally. The paper states the terms of the employment (wages, benefits, vacation, etc) and general job duties, but again, are almost never limited only to those things listed.
The idea that a hired person is only doing one job - or one set of duties floors me. Sure, you might only want to be a programmer - but if the owner of the company comes in and asks you to do something, in the US, you're pretty much expected to do it - or risk being let go.
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@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
In many if not most job descriptions in the US, it includes "additional duties as assigned." So yes, that means they can ask - and require - you to clean toilets... is that somehow beneath you?
Yes it is, if that is not in my job description. I've done my bit of menial labour when I had to, but I didn't study and build a career in IT to do things that are not my direct responsibility.
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@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
The law is what stops you from doing this - at least legally.
What law?
There typically is a piece of paper with this information on it - but it's not a signed thing generally. The paper states the terms of the employment (wages, benefits, vacation, etc) and general job duties, but again, are almost never limited only to those things listed.
The idea that a hired person is only doing one job - or one set of duties floors me. Sure, you might only want to be a programmer - but if the owner of the company comes in and asks you to do something, in the US, you're pretty much expected to do it - or risk being let go.
That is simply horrible.
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@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
In many if not most job descriptions in the US, it includes "additional duties as assigned." So yes, that means they can ask - and require - you to clean toilets... is that somehow beneath you?
Yes it is, if that is not in my job description. I've done my bit of menial labour when I had to, but I didn't study and build a career in IT to do things that are not my direct responsibility.
Well - that would be pretty awesome - but in the US - you'd just as easily be out on your ass if you refused to do something they legally asked you to do (that didn't also endanger you or others).
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@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
The law is what stops you from doing this - at least legally.
What law?
Federal/state laws - giving away corporate secrets are, I assume, unlawful.
But, since you asked there are company policies and procedures, and it's likely also covered in there that you can't give away company secrets - or else risk termination. But that's not really a contract either.There typically is a piece of paper with this information on it - but it's not a signed thing generally. The paper states the terms of the employment (wages, benefits, vacation, etc) and general job duties, but again, are almost never limited only to those things listed.
The idea that a hired person is only doing one job - or one set of duties floors me. Sure, you might only want to be a programmer - but if the owner of the company comes in and asks you to do something, in the US, you're pretty much expected to do it - or risk being let go.
That is simply horrible.
oh?
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@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
What law?
Many Corporate Espionage laws are a big one for this example.
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@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
The idea that a hired person is only doing one job - or one set of duties floors me. Sure, you might only want to be a programmer - but if the owner of the company comes in and asks you to do something, in the US, you're pretty much expected to do it - or risk being let go.
That is simply horrible.
Granted - most companies aren't going to ask their highly paid IT personal to scrub toilets, but it could happen.
Hell - When the DC's Scott was in charge of flooded - I'd be surprised if he wasn't part of the cleanup crew of the datacenter. I'm sure that wasn't in his listed job duties, but he did it just the same - assuming he was part of that.
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@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
Well - that would be pretty awesome - but in the US - you'd just as easily be out on your ass if you refused to do something they legally asked you to do (that didn't also endanger you or others).
The US sounds worse and worse with every post here
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@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@scottalanmiller said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
Most of the US is "at will" and supersedes any contracts. Employment can't be "at contact" for normal workers.
OK, that's just weird
Not really, it's like minimum wage. you can't sign a contract to not follow the law. Contracts can't break the law.
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@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
What's weird is the need for a contract for normal workers.
Our 'contracts' are just verbal - and fluid. If at any time one side or the other is unhappy... employment can be terminated - just walk away.
Of course those who hide behind the - oh they can't fire me/redundant me without paying me some money.. that's not good for the business.
It isn't about hiding behind anything, it's about protecting the employee and employer from each other. If you have no document stating what your job is, what's stopping the employer from telling you to wash the toilets one day, instead of doing your job? And what's stopping you from grabbing the employers' confidential data and running to the competition? NDA's and job descriptions are a typical part of any normal contract, and I mean "contract" as a document describing the employer-employee relationship, not necessarily with an outside contractor, but also with a full or part time employee. If you want to call that document by another name - please feel free to do so
Stealing data is always a crime, there is no need for a contact about that. What country makes data theft legal? That's what is insane. It's unbelievable that you have countries that would enforce a contract, but not make theft illegal? That's nuts. Just steal the contract then and you can't be touched?
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@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
What's weird is the need for a contract for normal workers.
Our 'contracts' are just verbal - and fluid. If at any time one side or the other is unhappy... employment can be terminated - just walk away.
Of course those who hide behind the - oh they can't fire me/redundant me without paying me some money.. that's not good for the business.
It isn't about hiding behind anything, it's about protecting the employee and employer from each other. If you have no document stating what your job is, what's stopping the employer from telling you to wash the toilets one day, instead of doing your job?
In many if not most job descriptions in the US, it includes "additional duties as assigned." So yes, that means they can ask - and require - you to clean toilets... is that somehow beneath you?
Essentially all. It's inherent in the at will status. Even when not stated, it is effectively always there.
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@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
In many if not most job descriptions in the US, it includes "additional duties as assigned." So yes, that means they can ask - and require - you to clean toilets... is that somehow beneath you?
Yes it is, if that is not in my job description. I've done my bit of menial labour when I had to, but I didn't study and build a career in IT to do things that are not my direct responsibility.
That's why the US is more able to respond to changes. We can hire people to do anything. I hire you to work on Windows today, but we change to Linux, you can't refuse to work on that, instead. You are free to quit, to demand different money, whatever.
It's insane to think that changes in company need can't be reflected in the existing staff, that makes the staff dramatically less valuable.
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@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
Granted - most companies aren't going to ask their highly paid IT personal to scrub toilets, but it could happen.
And if that employee simply walks out because of that, and his leaving causes the company significant damage, the company can sue and win?
Hell - When the DC's Scott was in charge of flooded - I'd be surprised if he wasn't part of the cleanup crew of the datacenter. I'm sure that wasn't in his listed job duties, but he did it just the same - assuming he was part of that.
Oh, I'd be helping too in that case. I might as well have used another example (the manager demanding you make him coffee every day maybe, for example). My point is asking you to do something that is completely NOT in your job description.
