PhotoMath Solves Math Problems via Video
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@Dashrender said:
I read something last year (more earlier) about how our education system is actually just a way to keep the masses down. I personally don't believe that to be true - but I'll definitely give you that we are not using the best methods for teaching.
Global online individual learning is probably the way we need to go. Now just to find out how to build it and financially support it.
I can appreciate the sentiment but I think that it is less conspiracy than that. The economy only needs a handful of really good, high end workers. It needs tons of relatively similar manual workers and, more recently, service workers. We needs tons more baristas, bar tenders, waiters, taxi drivers, etc. than we do engineers, scientists and IT people. Way more. So the school system is designed to focus on the majority, who aren't going to motivate themselves, and is willing to sacrifice the potential top end workers in the hopes that they will either come from rich families who will keep them from going through the system or that they will be so self motivated that they will self select out.
The ones who are really hurt by the system are the exceptional students who come from non-rich families or who lack parents willing to help them find better education. Those that are caught as good students in the bad systems are the big losers.
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@scottalanmiller I don't even think the status quo model fits so well anymore. It's a self-esteem building exercise that is more worried about not offending fringe groups than anything to do with education. It might not be a bad shift, seeing as how fantastic of a job it was doing in the education department. Oh, and don't get me wrong. I am not supporting the whiner-coddling that goes on for the sake of the fringe groups, either.
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@thanksaj said:
@art_of_shred said:
@thanksaj said:
@Dashrender said:
I read something last year (more earlier) about how our education system is actually just a way to keep the masses down. I personally don't believe that to be true - but I'll definitely give you that we are not using the best methods for teaching.
Global online individual learning is probably the way we need to go. Now just to find out how to build it and financially support it.
If you want to really get into it, the American education system is an early indoctrination system.
Thanks, AJ. That is about the most intelligent comment in this whole thread.
Serious or sarcastic?
Absolutely serious.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
I read something last year (more earlier) about how our education system is actually just a way to keep the masses down. I personally don't believe that to be true - but I'll definitely give you that we are not using the best methods for teaching.
Global online individual learning is probably the way we need to go. Now just to find out how to build it and financially support it.
I can appreciate the sentiment but I think that it is less conspiracy than that. The economy only needs a handful of really good, high end workers. It needs tons of relatively similar manual workers and, more recently, service workers. We needs tons more baristas, bar tenders, waiters, taxi drivers, etc. than we do engineers, scientists and IT people. Way more. So the school system is designed to focus on the majority, who aren't going to motivate themselves, and is willing to sacrifice the potential top end workers in the hopes that they will either come from rich families who will keep them from going through the system or that they will be so self motivated that they will self select out.
The ones who are really hurt by the system are the exceptional students who come from non-rich families or who lack parents willing to help them find better education. Those that are caught as good students in the bad systems are the big losers.
I'm confused. You think everything is a conspiracy... but not the stranglehold of the educrats?
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@coliver said:
Welcome to Americanism, where the intelligent and creative get punished and the mediocre get rewarded.
We are a big country, more like India, China and the Philippines. We don't have the luxury of having good education for everyone and high end jobs for everyone like small, elite countries like Norway, Finland and Switzerland have. They don't need "base economy" workers, they have other countries for that nearby. They are small and a huge percentage of their population can have amazing jobs. But the US is too large. Canada could try for that, but the US and Mexico are just too big. We have to provide the service sector, the manufacturing sector, the mining and transportation sectors, the agriculture, the forestry, the tourism. We can't make ourselves supported by banking, design, engineering and research. We can do those things, but they have to be a sideline. The core economy must be able to support hundreds of millions of people.
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@art_of_shred said:
@scottalanmiller I don't even think the status quo model fits so well anymore. It's a self-esteem building exercise that is more worried about not offending fringe groups than anything to do with education. It might not be a bad shift, seeing as how fantastic of a job it was doing in the education department. Oh, and don't get me wrong. I am not supporting the whiner-coddling that goes on for the sake of the fringe groups, either.
I agree. The system is designed to make you feel good, and prevent you from failing. They disillusion kids to what any semblance of real life will be like and then wonder why so many fail. Then they blame the education system for not "encouraging kids to be better" by things like going to college and "being all they can be". It's cyclical, and downward-spiraling.
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@art_of_shred said:
I'm confused. You think everything is a conspiracy... but not the stranglehold of the educrats?
I don't think that they are that forward thinking or organized. Just lazy and opportunistic.
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@art_of_shred said:
@thanksaj said:
@art_of_shred said:
@thanksaj said:
@Dashrender said:
I read something last year (more earlier) about how our education system is actually just a way to keep the masses down. I personally don't believe that to be true - but I'll definitely give you that we are not using the best methods for teaching.
Global online individual learning is probably the way we need to go. Now just to find out how to build it and financially support it.
If you want to really get into it, the American education system is an early indoctrination system.
Thanks, AJ. That is about the most intelligent comment in this whole thread.
Serious or sarcastic?
Absolutely serious.
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@scottalanmiller So this is one issue where you are taking my normal stance and I am taking yours. Strange.
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@art_of_shred said:
@scottalanmiller So this is one issue where you are taking my normal stance and I am taking yours. Strange.
When I think that something is a conspiracy, I'm giving credit to the people that I think are doing it. Conspiracy takes effort.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
Welcome to Americanism, where the intelligent and creative get punished and the mediocre get rewarded.
We are a big country, more like India, China and the Philippines. We don't have the luxury of having good education for everyone and high end jobs for everyone like small, elite countries like Norway, Finland and Switzerland have. They don't need "base economy" workers, they have other countries for that nearby. They are small and a huge percentage of their population can have amazing jobs. But the US is too large. Canada could try for that, but the US and Mexico are just too big. We have to provide the service sector, the manufacturing sector, the mining and transportation sectors, the agriculture, the forestry, the tourism. We can't make ourselves supported by banking, design, engineering and research. We can do those things, but they have to be a sideline. The core economy must be able to support hundreds of millions of people.
Great point - we have this broken notion that everyone can be and more importantly, should be at the top of their class, but as Scott pointed out, there just isn't enough room for that. Maybe in 20-50 years when our technology can take over all of the menial service jobs, but not today.
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@coliver said:
@art_of_shred said:
educrats
I've never heard this term before, can you define it?
LMGTFY:
educrat. An officer, administrator or other bureaucrat in a school district. The word combines the Latin part of educator with the Greek part of bureaucrat. -
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
Welcome to Americanism, where the intelligent and creative get punished and the mediocre get rewarded.
We are a big country, more like India, China and the Philippines. We don't have the luxury of having good education for everyone and high end jobs for everyone like small, elite countries like Norway, Finland and Switzerland have. They don't need "base economy" workers, they have other countries for that nearby. They are small and a huge percentage of their population can have amazing jobs. But the US is too large. Canada could try for that, but the US and Mexico are just too big. We have to provide the service sector, the manufacturing sector, the mining and transportation sectors, the agriculture, the forestry, the tourism. We can't make ourselves supported by banking, design, engineering and research. We can do those things, but they have to be a sideline. The core economy must be able to support hundreds of millions of people.
Great point - we have this broken notion that everyone can be and more importantly, should be at the top of their class, but as Scott pointed out, there just isn't enough room for that. Maybe in 20-50 years when our technology can take over all of the menial service jobs, but not today.
I pity when that happens.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
Welcome to Americanism, where the intelligent and creative get punished and the mediocre get rewarded.
We are a big country, more like India, China and the Philippines. We don't have the luxury of having good education for everyone and high end jobs for everyone like small, elite countries like Norway, Finland and Switzerland have. They don't need "base economy" workers, they have other countries for that nearby. They are small and a huge percentage of their population can have amazing jobs. But the US is too large. Canada could try for that, but the US and Mexico are just too big. We have to provide the service sector, the manufacturing sector, the mining and transportation sectors, the agriculture, the forestry, the tourism. We can't make ourselves supported by banking, design, engineering and research. We can do those things, but they have to be a sideline. The core economy must be able to support hundreds of millions of people.
This just proves the point of an impeding education bubble burst. Which will end very poorly for everyone.
Although there have been links between an educated population and a connection to social empathy and humanistic tendencies... but that is another conversation.
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@thanksaj said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
Welcome to Americanism, where the intelligent and creative get punished and the mediocre get rewarded.
We are a big country, more like India, China and the Philippines. We don't have the luxury of having good education for everyone and high end jobs for everyone like small, elite countries like Norway, Finland and Switzerland have. They don't need "base economy" workers, they have other countries for that nearby. They are small and a huge percentage of their population can have amazing jobs. But the US is too large. Canada could try for that, but the US and Mexico are just too big. We have to provide the service sector, the manufacturing sector, the mining and transportation sectors, the agriculture, the forestry, the tourism. We can't make ourselves supported by banking, design, engineering and research. We can do those things, but they have to be a sideline. The core economy must be able to support hundreds of millions of people.
Great point - we have this broken notion that everyone can be and more importantly, should be at the top of their class, but as Scott pointed out, there just isn't enough room for that. Maybe in 20-50 years when our technology can take over all of the menial service jobs, but not today.
I pity when that happens.
Really? why? sure we'll have a time where we'll have an employment problem but in a generation, with luck we'll have lower population growth, yet at the same time faster knowledge understanding.
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@Dashrender said:
@thanksaj said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
Welcome to Americanism, where the intelligent and creative get punished and the mediocre get rewarded.
We are a big country, more like India, China and the Philippines. We don't have the luxury of having good education for everyone and high end jobs for everyone like small, elite countries like Norway, Finland and Switzerland have. They don't need "base economy" workers, they have other countries for that nearby. They are small and a huge percentage of their population can have amazing jobs. But the US is too large. Canada could try for that, but the US and Mexico are just too big. We have to provide the service sector, the manufacturing sector, the mining and transportation sectors, the agriculture, the forestry, the tourism. We can't make ourselves supported by banking, design, engineering and research. We can do those things, but they have to be a sideline. The core economy must be able to support hundreds of millions of people.
Great point - we have this broken notion that everyone can be and more importantly, should be at the top of their class, but as Scott pointed out, there just isn't enough room for that. Maybe in 20-50 years when our technology can take over all of the menial service jobs, but not today.
I pity when that happens.
Really? why? sure we'll have a time where we'll have an employment problem but in a generation, with luck we'll have lower population growth, yet at the same time faster knowledge understanding.
For starters, only 10% of the population will ever be in the top 10%. Next, the huddled masses of average people aren't motivated enough to become part of that 10%. Those who are... are what makes up that 10%. Yes, we can do a better job of education, but we first need to understand and admit that not everyone cares or is capable of being excellent at life in general (in terms of education, career, etc.). We need a system that is dynamic enough to meet the needs of those who are under the bar, yet flexible enough to nurture those who are above it. Squeezing both ends to the middle can only result in failure. To cover that inevitable failure, the system lowers the bar. In the end, we get a mechanism for churning out below-average workers.
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@art_of_shred said:
@Dashrender said:
@thanksaj said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
Welcome to Americanism, where the intelligent and creative get punished and the mediocre get rewarded.
We are a big country, more like India, China and the Philippines. We don't have the luxury of having good education for everyone and high end jobs for everyone like small, elite countries like Norway, Finland and Switzerland have. They don't need "base economy" workers, they have other countries for that nearby. They are small and a huge percentage of their population can have amazing jobs. But the US is too large. Canada could try for that, but the US and Mexico are just too big. We have to provide the service sector, the manufacturing sector, the mining and transportation sectors, the agriculture, the forestry, the tourism. We can't make ourselves supported by banking, design, engineering and research. We can do those things, but they have to be a sideline. The core economy must be able to support hundreds of millions of people.
Great point - we have this broken notion that everyone can be and more importantly, should be at the top of their class, but as Scott pointed out, there just isn't enough room for that. Maybe in 20-50 years when our technology can take over all of the menial service jobs, but not today.
I pity when that happens.
Really? why? sure we'll have a time where we'll have an employment problem but in a generation, with luck we'll have lower population growth, yet at the same time faster knowledge understanding.
For starters, only 10% of the population will ever be in the top 10%. Next, the huddled masses of average people aren't motivated enough to become part of that 10%. Those who are... are what makes up that 10%. Yes, we can do a better job of education, but we first need to understand and admit that not everyone cares or is capable of being excellent at life in general (in terms of education, career, etc.). We need a system that is dynamic enough to meet the needs of those who are under the bar, yet flexible enough to nurture those who are above it. Squeezing both ends to the middle can only result in failure. To cover that inevitable failure, the system lowers the bar. In the end, we get a mechanism for churning out below-average workers.
To be honest, I think the way classes are organized is backwards. While lumping people by ability seems smart, you have the brilliant but lazy kids together with the smart and hard-working, and some above-average and extremely diligent, all in one class. It would make more sense to go, not by aptitude, but attitude. Put all the kids willing to work their ass off together and mentor to kids as necessary. Put all the kids who don't give a $4!+ in another class. Assign teachers accordingly. You'd probably yield much more productive results, albeit not in terms of statistics.
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@thanksaj said:
@art_of_shred said:
@Dashrender said:
@thanksaj said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
Welcome to Americanism, where the intelligent and creative get punished and the mediocre get rewarded.
We are a big country, more like India, China and the Philippines. We don't have the luxury of having good education for everyone and high end jobs for everyone like small, elite countries like Norway, Finland and Switzerland have. They don't need "base economy" workers, they have other countries for that nearby. They are small and a huge percentage of their population can have amazing jobs. But the US is too large. Canada could try for that, but the US and Mexico are just too big. We have to provide the service sector, the manufacturing sector, the mining and transportation sectors, the agriculture, the forestry, the tourism. We can't make ourselves supported by banking, design, engineering and research. We can do those things, but they have to be a sideline. The core economy must be able to support hundreds of millions of people.
Great point - we have this broken notion that everyone can be and more importantly, should be at the top of their class, but as Scott pointed out, there just isn't enough room for that. Maybe in 20-50 years when our technology can take over all of the menial service jobs, but not today.
I pity when that happens.
Really? why? sure we'll have a time where we'll have an employment problem but in a generation, with luck we'll have lower population growth, yet at the same time faster knowledge understanding.
For starters, only 10% of the population will ever be in the top 10%. Next, the huddled masses of average people aren't motivated enough to become part of that 10%. Those who are... are what makes up that 10%. Yes, we can do a better job of education, but we first need to understand and admit that not everyone cares or is capable of being excellent at life in general (in terms of education, career, etc.). We need a system that is dynamic enough to meet the needs of those who are under the bar, yet flexible enough to nurture those who are above it. Squeezing both ends to the middle can only result in failure. To cover that inevitable failure, the system lowers the bar. In the end, we get a mechanism for churning out below-average workers.
To be honest, I think the way classes are organized is backwards. While lumping people by ability seems smart, you have the brilliant but lazy kids together with the smart and hard-working, and some above-average and extremely diligent, all in one class. It would make more sense to go, not by aptitude, but attitude. Put all the kids willing to work their ass off together and mentor to kids as necessary. Put all the kids who don't give a $4!+ in another class. Assign teachers accordingly. You'd probably yield much more productive results, albeit not in terms of statistics.
That's kind of how it was when I was in grade school. We had 4 groups per class. In 6th grade, there was 6-1, 6-2, 6-3, and 6-4. The 1's were the upper crust. It had to be a mix though, as 4 relatively equal-in-size groups had to be parsed out of the total group. Still, it set the pace closer to what the group was ready for. Too bad all the whiners had to come around and complain "it's not fair", and even worse that anyone listened.
