Dipping Toes Into Programming
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Think of the most basic program that you can realistically think of.... console apps. They run code (Python, JavaScript, Ruby, C#, whatever) and they output text to the console. It's simple. You run code, you get text out.
Now, with web programming, you write your program and it is not run in the shell, but on a web server. The web server doesn't output the resulting text to the console, instead it sends that text to the web browser. You could make it plain text, but people would hate you. So you format your plain text as HTML. Now it looks like a web page. The program that you wrote is not outputting a web page instead of plain text.
That's really all that is going on. The web server handles the network piece and telling the client what to expect. But other than that, you are still writing a console app that just spits out text. You are just carefully formatting that text so that the web browser can render it.
Have you written HTML by hand? If not, you should. It helps to make this more clear.
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@scottalanmiller said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
Have you written HTML by hand? If not, you should. It helps to make this more clear.
Yes i've written full plain HTML websites from scratch, I'm well versed in it, though it's been a while. I get HTML, that's easy.
That bit of HTML I gave before as an example, if you remove the javascript, you just see a blank page.
Now, with your explanations from above, it yet makes things even more clear.
So let's see if I have this right:
Above HTML displays a blank page, but one (combined with the others) of the pieces (i'm assuming
molten.js) loads via the <script> tag. This I'm familiar with too, back in the day I used already made javascripts on my sites to do cool things on pages.So what you're saying is that molten.js is doing all the behind the scenes work on the server, and then outputting it's own HTML (what you see when the webpage loads), on top of that blank HTML page going on in index.html? I'm thinking of it in the context of acting like an iframe if you know what I'm getting at.
I'm familiar with that as well then, in a way, as I have a PowerShell script that grabs all users from specified OUs plus some specified info as well as their AD picture, and outputs it to a .html file to be used as a company phone list. But in this case, the PowerShell script is generating the entire index.html file itself. Not being called and loading content after an existing page is already loaded.
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@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
Above HTML displays a blank page, but one (combined with the others) of the pieces (i'm assuming
molten.js) loads via the <script> tag. This I'm familiar with too, back in the day I used already made javascripts on my sites to do cool things on pages.So what you're saying is that molten.js is doing all the behind the scenes work on the server, and then outputting it's own HTML (what you see when the webpage loads), on top of that blank HTML page going on in index.html? I'm thinking of it in the context of acting like an iframe if you know what I'm getting at.
I'm familiar with that as well then, in a way, as I have a PowerShell script that grabs all users from specified OUs plus some specified info as well as their AD picture, and outputs it to a .html file to be used as a company phone list. But in this case, the PowerShell script is generating the entire index.html file itself. Not being called and loading content after an existing page is already loaded.
Right, I think you are seeing it now. So in your PS example, PS outputs the ENTIRE HTML page. And that's a fine and valid way to do things. But a far more common approach today is to have HTML pages as templates which have places within them that the server side application fills in. The simplest form of this was was "Server Side Includes" or SSI back in the day. This was not done programatically but the web server would see hooks in the template and just inject a different partial into it to fill out the page. This used to be a popular way of making standard headers and footers.
Now our web apps do this and put all kinds of dynamic data all over the place, sometimes it's the whole page, sometimes it is a tiny piece of it. But the HTML that you see is really just a template to hold the new code that the server is generating.
iFrames is a good example, but works differently. An iFrame is completely separate. If you looked at resulting page source for an iFrame, you see the "container" holding the other stuff. But with normal HTML/JS generated with a template, the resulting code is seamless.
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Okay great.
Python + Django it is!
Also, some good news here I think: https://wordpress.stackexchange.com/questions/120259/running-a-python-script-within-wordpress if I would want to do WP plugins that use Python. At least it looks that way.
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@wirestyle22 said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
Many of my programmer friends have recommended this: https://learnpythonthehardway.org/ if you're interested in Python specifically
That's where I started, when it was free. Not sure if it is worth to pay for it. It uses a few good learning patterns, but you should just apply them to all code you learn.
Type out all code you're learning, don't copy paste. Try to read and understand it as you type it.
Then play with the code, figure out how it works, how you break it.
Get a simple project going that you can apply what you are learning to. Your own text-based game is a great way to start.
IMO, Learn Python the Hard Way doesn't do a great job with OOP, but maybe it is just something you have to play with a lot in order to get it. Definitely spend a lot of time here, understanding the basics of it needs to come as second nature. You can play with it in Powershell too.
There are some great free resources online, I can find a few links later
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This is one good one
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@Tim_G I am currently learning web development as well so we can help each other on this new path.
I would totally recommend two resources to start Mozilla MDN web developer guide and Freecodecamp. Freecode camp being completely interactive and the Mozilla docs being mainly reading guides but both are quite good and as a plus for the Mozilla guide is that they include a Django tutorial as part of the server side tutorial.
Freecodecamp mainly focuses on teaching you Javascript so if you would like to use a python backend framework you should also take a python course. But if you don't mind its javascript focus it is pretty complete. It will freshen up your html and css, teach you javascript for the front end (currently vanilla javascript and jquery but the beta curriculum adds react as well ), https://d3js.org/ for data visualization and node/expressjs for the backend
This is their current front end path, they teach you the basics and then make you build stuff to really put to practice what you learn.
My end goal is to be able to intelligently write bits of software that are able to communicate and interact with APIs like REST API, to display and manipulate data on HTML5 pages.
If you only want to consume and interact with already made REST APIs you should focus and start on the frontend stuff. This will lead you straight to javascript first which is what you will use to interact with them from the browser.
I would advise you to first learn vanilla javascript (focusing on ES6+ if you can) and then think about learning and using libraries like reactjs or vuejs.
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Thanks for the helpful information and resource links. I'll definitely use those and they look like a great place to start.
I do agree that the front end dev and JavaScript would be a good place to start, but I am also very interested in Python + Django. I think that would be a good base to have, and then move to the front end dev stuff above after.
I probably won't be moving through this as fast as you are due to this only being a spare time thing for me, behind the directly IT related things I am doing. But as I come across things I'll share with you as well.
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@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@scottalanmiller said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@flaxking said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g
Flask is an unassuming simple framework. It is good for creating something simple, or for creating something complex and cutting edge where you need flexibility. In order to build out a webapp, you would need to learn more components than just Flask.
Django is a monolithic framework, batteries are included. You just have to learn Django in order to build a web app. You don't have to create things from scratch, but there are certain ways to do things, so there is less flexibility. It takes longer to learn Django, because there is so much more there. But when you do learn it, you can pump out web apps pretty fast. With Flask there are other things you have to learn, and you have to figure out how you want them to interact.
Once you have a decent amount of Python, you can learn at least the basics of Flask in a day, and then look at learning Django too.
If you're interested in messing around with Salt, I think Python is the way to go. Salt's code is pretty easy to understand and work with for junior devs, and you can start making your own customizations.
Thanks for the explanation, it helps a lot.
This narrows it down to the following:
- Python / Django
- JavaScript / ReactJS
ReactJS is just an interface layer, it's not a framework like Django.
Yes I'm not as worried about having a full framework like Django for JavaScirpt. ReactJS seems to hit all the check boxes I'm looking for though.
I wouldn't even start touching ReactJS until I would be well into JavaScript anyways. And at that point, it may be that I change my mind and want something else once I understand everything much better.
With Django, I would start both at the same time, as my focus would purely be on the web side first, I think.
I will recommend you read more about server-side rendering and client-side rendering to really decide what are you going to use when building your apps/web pages. There is really nothing to compare between Django and ReactJS, they can even work together since one can be used as backend and the other as the frontend.
Django is batteries included framework which by default is used to render web templates server side; It can just as easily be used with the Django-Rest-Framework to create Rest APIs and be consumes by your client-side javascript libraries/frameworks.
ReactJS is a library mainly used for client-side rendering and building SPAs, you can use is to render server side using something like Nextjs but that is not its most common usage.
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@romo said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@scottalanmiller said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@flaxking said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g
Flask is an unassuming simple framework. It is good for creating something simple, or for creating something complex and cutting edge where you need flexibility. In order to build out a webapp, you would need to learn more components than just Flask.
Django is a monolithic framework, batteries are included. You just have to learn Django in order to build a web app. You don't have to create things from scratch, but there are certain ways to do things, so there is less flexibility. It takes longer to learn Django, because there is so much more there. But when you do learn it, you can pump out web apps pretty fast. With Flask there are other things you have to learn, and you have to figure out how you want them to interact.
Once you have a decent amount of Python, you can learn at least the basics of Flask in a day, and then look at learning Django too.
If you're interested in messing around with Salt, I think Python is the way to go. Salt's code is pretty easy to understand and work with for junior devs, and you can start making your own customizations.
Thanks for the explanation, it helps a lot.
This narrows it down to the following:
- Python / Django
- JavaScript / ReactJS
ReactJS is just an interface layer, it's not a framework like Django.
Yes I'm not as worried about having a full framework like Django for JavaScirpt. ReactJS seems to hit all the check boxes I'm looking for though.
I wouldn't even start touching ReactJS until I would be well into JavaScript anyways. And at that point, it may be that I change my mind and want something else once I understand everything much better.
With Django, I would start both at the same time, as my focus would purely be on the web side first, I think.
I will recommend you read more about server-side rendering and client-side rendering to really decide what are you going to use when building your apps/web pages. There is really nothing to compare between Django and ReactJS, they can even work together since one can be used as backend and the other as the frontend.
Django is batteries included framework which by default is used to render web templates server side; It can just as easily be used with the Django-Rest-Framework to create Rest APIs and be consumes by your client-side javascript libraries/frameworks.
ReactJS is a library mainly used for client-side rendering and building SPAs, you can use is to render server side using something like Nextjs but that is not its most common usage.
Yes I get they can all be used together, but I need to start somewhere. I don't know any Python or JavaScript. I need to start there. I feel Python is the best place to start, at least until a more general understanding of it, then get into Django with Python.
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@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@romo said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@scottalanmiller said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@flaxking said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g
Flask is an unassuming simple framework. It is good for creating something simple, or for creating something complex and cutting edge where you need flexibility. In order to build out a webapp, you would need to learn more components than just Flask.
Django is a monolithic framework, batteries are included. You just have to learn Django in order to build a web app. You don't have to create things from scratch, but there are certain ways to do things, so there is less flexibility. It takes longer to learn Django, because there is so much more there. But when you do learn it, you can pump out web apps pretty fast. With Flask there are other things you have to learn, and you have to figure out how you want them to interact.
Once you have a decent amount of Python, you can learn at least the basics of Flask in a day, and then look at learning Django too.
If you're interested in messing around with Salt, I think Python is the way to go. Salt's code is pretty easy to understand and work with for junior devs, and you can start making your own customizations.
Thanks for the explanation, it helps a lot.
This narrows it down to the following:
- Python / Django
- JavaScript / ReactJS
ReactJS is just an interface layer, it's not a framework like Django.
Yes I'm not as worried about having a full framework like Django for JavaScirpt. ReactJS seems to hit all the check boxes I'm looking for though.
I wouldn't even start touching ReactJS until I would be well into JavaScript anyways. And at that point, it may be that I change my mind and want something else once I understand everything much better.
With Django, I would start both at the same time, as my focus would purely be on the web side first, I think.
I will recommend you read more about server-side rendering and client-side rendering to really decide what are you going to use when building your apps/web pages. There is really nothing to compare between Django and ReactJS, they can even work together since one can be used as backend and the other as the frontend.
Django is batteries included framework which by default is used to render web templates server side; It can just as easily be used with the Django-Rest-Framework to create Rest APIs and be consumes by your client-side javascript libraries/frameworks.
ReactJS is a library mainly used for client-side rendering and building SPAs, you can use is to render server side using something like Nextjs but that is not its most common usage.
Yes I get they can all be used together, but I need to start somewhere. I don't know any Python or JavaScript. I need to start there. I feel Python is the best place to start, at least until a more general understanding of it, then get into Django with Python.
Probably starting on "non-web" is good. Learning web first is very confusing.
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@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
I was comparing some different IDEs for JavaScript, and unless someone can get WebStorm for free, it looks like Visual Studio Code is the real winner.
I've used Komodo IDE in the past and loved it..
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@tim_g I have been using Thonny and the learnpython.org tutorials the last day or so. I also downloaded VS Code which is free from MS and includes python and node.js support out of the box. Also VS Code has a linux client
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@dave247 said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
I was comparing some different IDEs for JavaScript, and unless someone can get WebStorm for free, it looks like Visual Studio Code is the real winner.
I've used Komodo IDE in the past and loved it..
Haven't seen that one in a while.
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I found this website which looks interesting and helpful:
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I have that book somewhere.
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I have this book, but it's 1500 pages...
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@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@scottalanmiller said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
Have you written HTML by hand? If not, you should. It helps to make this more clear.
Yes i've written full plain HTML websites from scratch, I'm well versed in it, though it's been a while. I get HTML, that's easy.
That bit of HTML I gave before as an example, if you remove the javascript, you just see a blank page.
Now, with your explanations from above, it yet makes things even more clear.
So let's see if I have this right:
Above HTML displays a blank page, but one (combined with the others) of the pieces (i'm assuming
molten.js) loads via the <script> tag. This I'm familiar with too, back in the day I used already made javascripts on my sites to do cool things on pages.So what you're saying is that molten.js is doing all the behind the scenes work on the server, and then outputting it's own HTML (what you see when the webpage loads), on top of that blank HTML page going on in index.html? I'm thinking of it in the context of acting like an iframe if you know what I'm getting at.
This is a SPA, which means all the logic, rendering and routing of the app is moved away from the server and into the client(client-side rendering). Molten.js is the app (the whole interface) bundled together (using webpack) and sent to you completely on your first request.
Even though the backend is using a python framework (cherrypy), you don't have to write any Python code at all to consume the REST API exposed by it. Basically the backend is only sending your browser JSON and nothing else after the first request.
I'm familiar with that as well then, in a way, as I have a PowerShell script that grabs all users from specified OUs plus some specified info as well as their AD picture, and outputs it to a .html file to be used as a company phone list. But in this case, the PowerShell script is generating the entire index.html file itself. Not being called and loading content after an existing page is already loaded.
This is more akin to server-side rendering, where the backend is completely in charge of the logic, the routing and rendering of the HTML templates. When using server-side rendering, each request for a new page you make on the client causes a page refresh which contains a pre-rendered HTML template as a response from the backend.
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@scottalanmiller said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@romo said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@scottalanmiller said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@flaxking said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g
Flask is an unassuming simple framework. It is good for creating something simple, or for creating something complex and cutting edge where you need flexibility. In order to build out a webapp, you would need to learn more components than just Flask.
Django is a monolithic framework, batteries are included. You just have to learn Django in order to build a web app. You don't have to create things from scratch, but there are certain ways to do things, so there is less flexibility. It takes longer to learn Django, because there is so much more there. But when you do learn it, you can pump out web apps pretty fast. With Flask there are other things you have to learn, and you have to figure out how you want them to interact.
Once you have a decent amount of Python, you can learn at least the basics of Flask in a day, and then look at learning Django too.
If you're interested in messing around with Salt, I think Python is the way to go. Salt's code is pretty easy to understand and work with for junior devs, and you can start making your own customizations.
Thanks for the explanation, it helps a lot.
This narrows it down to the following:
- Python / Django
- JavaScript / ReactJS
ReactJS is just an interface layer, it's not a framework like Django.
Yes I'm not as worried about having a full framework like Django for JavaScirpt. ReactJS seems to hit all the check boxes I'm looking for though.
I wouldn't even start touching ReactJS until I would be well into JavaScript anyways. And at that point, it may be that I change my mind and want something else once I understand everything much better.
With Django, I would start both at the same time, as my focus would purely be on the web side first, I think.
I will recommend you read more about server-side rendering and client-side rendering to really decide what are you going to use when building your apps/web pages. There is really nothing to compare between Django and ReactJS, they can even work together since one can be used as backend and the other as the frontend.
Django is batteries included framework which by default is used to render web templates server side; It can just as easily be used with the Django-Rest-Framework to create Rest APIs and be consumes by your client-side javascript libraries/frameworks.
ReactJS is a library mainly used for client-side rendering and building SPAs, you can use is to render server side using something like Nextjs but that is not its most common usage.
Yes I get they can all be used together, but I need to start somewhere. I don't know any Python or JavaScript. I need to start there. I feel Python is the best place to start, at least until a more general understanding of it, then get into Django with Python.
Probably starting on "non-web" is good. Learning web first is very confusing.
I agree, first learn the basics of the languages and then start with the web stuff.
