Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!
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I need to brush up on my Logic and the art of the Fallacy. There are some great examples in this thread.
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@marcinozga said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@scottalanmiller said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@marcinozga said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@scottalanmiller said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@marcinozga said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
If alcohol is so healthy, how come my pregnant wife cannot drink any? Right, it kills cells, all kinds.
What do you mean she can't drink any? I've only heard doctors recommend it to pregnant women, never tell them to avoid it. I've known a lot of people whose doctors told them that they should consider drinking while pregnant as stress is the bigger danger during pregnancy. We were just talking a few days ago about how our doctors were always telling my wife to have red wine while pregnant.
If a doctor told my wife to drink during pregnancy, that would be the last time we'd see that doctor. She's under a care or multiple doctors in the practice, not one will tell you to drink, and every single one will strongly suggest otherwise.
Well sure, if you are self selecting doctors that only tell you what you've decided is good advice - you have chosen the advice then found a doctor that says it. Rather than choosing the doctor and getting their advice.
It's a bit like only hiring Windows Admins, then saying that all IT people you know recommend Windows.
It's not about being selective, it's following common sense. If you had diabetes, would you listen to a doctor that tells you to drink 4 cans of coke a day? Or if you had high blood pressure and a doctor told you to eat a pound of bacon or sausage for breakfast, would you still listen? Or let's get straight to alcohol, you have liver disease, doctor tells you to have a 6 pack for lunch, now please don't tell me you wouldn't want to punch the guy in the face?
If I have liver disease and am asking a doctor if I should be drinking, I am an idiot. We aren't talking about a situation where you already know the answer. We are talking about one where we need the advice.
In ANY situation where you need advice, you can't preselect using "common sense." Otherwise, by definition, you'd not need to know at all.
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@scottalanmiller now replace liver disease with pregnancy in that first sentence. It's a known fact that alcohol damages both liver and fetus. The difference is liver can regenerate, fetus cannot.
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Like I said earlier, it's the amount that matters.
I'm only assuming here, but I would think a doctor would specify "moderate" drinking. If you define moderate drinking, you'll see it can be from 1-4 drinks per episode, but no more than 7 per week for women. It depends on the source. I've seen to stay under 0.055% BAC.
https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/moderate-binge-drinking
specifies moderate drinking as no more than 1 per day for women.I also have never seen any recommendation stating and specifying anything other than "moderate" drinking.
So unless you stay within the confines of what moderate drinking is, always... you cannot use drinking for health to justify drinking more than moderately.
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@marcinozga said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@scottalanmiller now replace liver disease with pregnancy in that first sentence. It's a known fact that alcohol damages both liver and fetus. The difference is liver can regenerate, fetus cannot.
This is where you leave fact behind and go into "I've just made things up" land. It is NOT known that alcohol damages these things in proper quantities. Anyone claiming so is just lying. It MIGHT do that, not having any might do that, too. Bottom line, we don't know.
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@scottalanmiller said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@marcinozga said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@scottalanmiller now replace liver disease with pregnancy in that first sentence. It's a known fact that alcohol damages both liver and fetus. The difference is liver can regenerate, fetus cannot.
This is where you leave fact behind and go into "I've just made things up" land. It is NOT known that alcohol damages these things in proper quantities. Anyone claiming so is just lying. It MIGHT do that, not having any might do that, too. Bottom line, we don't know.
Oh, we do know:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3321494/
https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/fasd/alcohol-use.html -
@marcinozga said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
This source specifically says that they don't know. How did you use "we don't know" as "we know?" All it says is that they have not determined the right amount, not that there isn't a safe amount or even that some isn't better than none.
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@marcinozga said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
Oh, we do know:
This says absolutely nothing about alcohol being bad for you. It is just giving the obvious information that "too much of anything" is bad for you. Which we already know. If you think this is telling you that all alcohol is bad, it must then mean that all water is bad, too, as too much water will kill you.
Bottom line... there is no scientific or common sense evidence that alcohol in proper quantities is unhealthy and most studies show or suggest that some alcohol is actually good for you.
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The actual facts that we know from scientific studies...
- There is no proof that moderate alcohol is bad for you as an adult or as a baby. There is simply no evidence behind any claim of this nature.
- There is proof that too much alcohol consumption is unhealthy (duh, this applies to everything including water and oxygen.)
- There is also proof that too little alcohol consumption is unhealthy for adults.
Those are the facts that we know. Everything else is someone with an agenda trying to persuade you to some personal belief without scientific study to back it up. And these can be wrong, but are the best that science has provided today.
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@marcinozga said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@scottalanmiller now replace liver disease with pregnancy in that first sentence. It's a known fact that alcohol damages both liver and fetus. The difference is liver can regenerate, fetus cannot.
These is evidence (not sure about known fact) that huge amounts of alcohol can, and generally do, cause Fetal alcohol syndrome.
Now I'd like to see a link to the studies that show that 1-2 red wine (only thing I've seen mentioned so far) are more damaging to fetus vs zero.This really isn't much different than the start of this thread where it was finally agreed upon (because of existing studies) that a person will live longer if they drink moderately versus zero drinks.
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@scottalanmiller said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@marcinozga said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
This source specifically says that they don't know. How did you use "we don't know" as "we know?" All it says is that they have not determined the right amount, not that there isn't a safe amount or even that some isn't better than none.
"There is no known safe amount of alcohol use during pregnancy or while trying to get pregnant. There is also no safe time during pregnancy to drink. All types of alcohol are equally harmful, including all wines and beer. When a pregnant woman drinks alcohol, so does her baby." - hint, 2nd and 3rd sentence.
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@dashrender said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
Now I'd like to see a link to the studies that show that 1-2 red wine (only thing I've seen mentioned so far) are more damaging to fetus vs zero.
Right, and I'd assume that the lack of such studies by the doctors who claim to know this is because they are confident that it would prove them wrong, so they avoid collecting evidence.
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@marcinozga said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@scottalanmiller said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@marcinozga said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
This source specifically says that they don't know. How did you use "we don't know" as "we know?" All it says is that they have not determined the right amount, not that there isn't a safe amount or even that some isn't better than none.
"There is no known safe amount of alcohol use during pregnancy or while trying to get pregnant. There is also no safe time during pregnancy to drink. All types of alcohol are equally harmful, including all wines and beer. When a pregnant woman drinks alcohol, so does her baby." - hint, 2nd and 3rd sentence.
None of that, literally not one word of it, says that they know that alcohol is bad (we don't need to keep saying "in proper quantities" unless someone truly things that water needs a warning, too). You are letting them "lead you" with the writing style.
Read it careful. All it says is that "they don't know." They never say alcohol is dangerous. They point out obvious things and let you draw false conclusions. This is standard marketing techniques that we talk about regularly. How sales people state something simple and true that tells you nothing, and let you presume that they meant something more.
This is how you get people to lie to themselves, it's what prevents lawsuits and you never have to say things as people will "fill in the gaps" with their own assumptions.
You read this and think they just said alcohol is known to be bad. I read it and see words that very clearly say "we don't know much of anything."
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@scottalanmiller said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@marcinozga said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
Oh, we do know:
This says absolutely nothing about alcohol being bad for you. It is just giving the obvious information that "too much of anything" is bad for you. Which we already know. If you think this is telling you that all alcohol is bad, it must then mean that all water is bad, too, as too much water will kill you.
Bottom line... there is no scientific or common sense evidence that alcohol in proper quantities is unhealthy and most studies show or suggest that some alcohol is actually good for you.
But it does. It explains alcohol metabolism at cellular and molecular level, and indicates that metabolism does damage the liver. We're not getting into exact quantities here, as that's really impossible to estimate, for the sake of argument lets say single C2H5OH molecule damages single liver cell. That's the evidence right there.
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@dashrender said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
This really isn't much different than the start of this thread where it was finally agreed upon (because of existing studies) that a person will live longer if they drink moderately versus zero drinks.
Right. Common sense would tell us that a fetus likely benefits from alcohol the same as an adult does - just as they do with salt, proteins, sugar, water, etc. But common sense also tells us that a fetus is special and could easily be a special case and that you can't assume it benefits from it just because an adult does.
Basically - there is no specific reason to think that a fetus shouldn't have alcohol via the mother. But because a fetus is a special case, you have to assume that there is a possibility of such.
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@marcinozga said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@scottalanmiller said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@marcinozga said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
Oh, we do know:
This says absolutely nothing about alcohol being bad for you. It is just giving the obvious information that "too much of anything" is bad for you. Which we already know. If you think this is telling you that all alcohol is bad, it must then mean that all water is bad, too, as too much water will kill you.
Bottom line... there is no scientific or common sense evidence that alcohol in proper quantities is unhealthy and most studies show or suggest that some alcohol is actually good for you.
But it does. It explains alcohol metabolism at cellular and molecular level, and indicates that metabolism does damage the liver. We're not getting into exact quantities here, as that's really impossible to estimate, for the sake of argument lets say single C2H5OH molecule damages single liver cell. That's the evidence right there.
Stress does more damage to your body and the baby's body than moderate alcohol consumption.
This much as already been determined.
Just keep in mind what moderate alcohol consumption is defined to mean.
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@scottalanmiller said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@marcinozga said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@scottalanmiller said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@marcinozga said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
This source specifically says that they don't know. How did you use "we don't know" as "we know?" All it says is that they have not determined the right amount, not that there isn't a safe amount or even that some isn't better than none.
"There is no known safe amount of alcohol use during pregnancy or while trying to get pregnant. There is also no safe time during pregnancy to drink. All types of alcohol are equally harmful, including all wines and beer. When a pregnant woman drinks alcohol, so does her baby." - hint, 2nd and 3rd sentence.
None of that, literally not one word of it, says that they know that alcohol is bad (we don't need to keep saying "in proper quantities" unless someone truly things that water needs a warning, too). You are letting them "lead you" with the writing style.
Read it careful. All it says is that "they don't know." They never say alcohol is dangerous. They point out obvious things and let you draw false conclusions. This is standard marketing techniques that we talk about regularly. How sales people state something simple and true that tells you nothing, and let you presume that they meant something more.
This is how you get people to lie to themselves, it's what prevents lawsuits and you never have to say things as people will "fill in the gaps" with their own assumptions.
You read this and think they just said alcohol is known to be bad. I read it and see words that very clearly say "we don't know much of anything."
Seriously? Do you only read what you want to read? All alcohol are equally harmful - does that sound they never say alcohol is dangerous?
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@marcinozga said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@scottalanmiller said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@marcinozga said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
Oh, we do know:
This says absolutely nothing about alcohol being bad for you. It is just giving the obvious information that "too much of anything" is bad for you. Which we already know. If you think this is telling you that all alcohol is bad, it must then mean that all water is bad, too, as too much water will kill you.
Bottom line... there is no scientific or common sense evidence that alcohol in proper quantities is unhealthy and most studies show or suggest that some alcohol is actually good for you.
But it does. It explains alcohol metabolism at cellular and molecular level, and indicates that metabolism does damage the liver. We're not getting into exact quantities here, as that's really impossible to estimate, for the sake of argument lets say single C2H5OH molecule damages single liver cell. That's the evidence right there.
You can say the same thing about radiation. Yet we know scientifically that there is a healthy level of radiation and too much OR too little is bad for you. The body needs a certain, regular level of damage to stay at peak health.
You have two misconceptions here in the logic flow that I see...
- Quantity. All things are unhealthy in wrong quantities, literally everything from air to water to sunlight to broccoli. We don't know that all alcohol levels causes damage, only that too much does. That alone doesn't lead us to anything useful.
- Cellular damage is not unhealthy. Just because something is bad for a single cell doesn't imply that it is then bad for the health overall. That's one way to lead to being unhealthy, but it is also a way to lead to being healthy. This is getting "caught in the weeds" and stuck looking at a specific detail and not at the health as a whole.
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@marcinozga said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
Seriously? Do you only read what you want to read? All alcohol are equally harmful - does that sound they never say alcohol is dangerous?
So all alcohol are equally harmful. But we don't know if it is harmful. So this says, quite literally, nothing. It's filler words.
Read carefully what you are quoting. It only says something significant if you "fill in the gaps" with assumptions that they don't say. They are literally saying nothing, but you are assuming that they are making big claims.
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@marcinozga said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@scottalanmiller said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@marcinozga said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
Oh, we do know:
This says absolutely nothing about alcohol being bad for you. It is just giving the obvious information that "too much of anything" is bad for you. Which we already know. If you think this is telling you that all alcohol is bad, it must then mean that all water is bad, too, as too much water will kill you.
Bottom line... there is no scientific or common sense evidence that alcohol in proper quantities is unhealthy and most studies show or suggest that some alcohol is actually good for you.
But it does. It explains alcohol metabolism at cellular and molecular level, and indicates that metabolism does damage the liver. We're not getting into exact quantities here, as that's really impossible to estimate, for the sake of argument lets say single C2H5OH molecule damages single liver cell. That's the evidence right there.
Sure, but Livers regenerate, so this is probably a completely norm part of human evolution, etc... and not really harmful long term (and studies have proven as much for adults - as Scott said - fetus might be a special case, we simply don't know).
