Transition from IT Pro to Sales Engineer: How?
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@scottalanmiller said:
I get to do all of the sales engineering type stuff that SEs do but without the compromise to integrity necessary to be an actual sales engineer.
That has to be about one of the best jobs in the world! and yet you still have a day (or is it night) on wallstreet?
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@ajstringham said:
The example you're thinking of is Sophos, in their actual endpoint protection, for $90/PC/year. While I agree that the price is steep, think of the alternative. Sure, you can get Vipre for $15/PC/year. Webroot EP in a 5-user license is $25/PC/year. However, then the customer has to manage all the backend stuff. The $90/PC/year was in a small part for the product, but mostly for the management of the console. Your average home user pays a premium for business-level protection, without requiring any of the knowledge to manage it themselves. I still stand by that being a good value, albeit not the cheapest solution.
No, the example I was thinking of is when you had a farmer bury a cheap switch in the yard and run CAT5 and power underground between consumer routers rather than skipping all of that and saving a few hundred dollars and running fiber. We talked about it and how the farmer was getting screwed because Staples didn't sell the appropriate gear but he trusted you so you were able to sell him a ridiculous solution that I'm sure has shorted out and caused a fire by now. He lost money, wasted effort and took on actually electrical risk all to end up with an unstable, pointless solution when doing the right thing was super cheap and simple (and safe.)
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@Dashrender said:
That has to be about one of the best jobs in the world! and yet you still have a day (or is it night) on wallstreet?
I'm really a solutions architect. That's the broad category that lets me do those roles internally.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@ajstringham said:
The example you're thinking of is Sophos, in their actual endpoint protection, for $90/PC/year. While I agree that the price is steep, think of the alternative. Sure, you can get Vipre for $15/PC/year. Webroot EP in a 5-user license is $25/PC/year. However, then the customer has to manage all the backend stuff. The $90/PC/year was in a small part for the product, but mostly for the management of the console. Your average home user pays a premium for business-level protection, without requiring any of the knowledge to manage it themselves. I still stand by that being a good value, albeit not the cheapest solution.
No, the example I was thinking of is when you had a farmer bury a cheap switch in the yard and run CAT5 and power underground between consumer routers rather than skipping all of that and saving a few hundred dollars and running fiber. We talked about it and how the farmer was getting screwed because Staples didn't sell the appropriate gear but he trusted you so you were able to sell him a ridiculous solution that I'm sure has shorted out and caused a fire by now. He lost money, wasted effort and took on actually electrical risk all to end up with an unstable, pointless solution when doing the right thing was super cheap and simple (and safe.)
The solution was sound and worked. Fiber would have been an option, but you are right, it's nothing I would have been able to implement. However, when you talk about time, materials, and labor, I don't think it would have been cheaper, or easier.
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Wow. On My phone so I'll keep it short.
That's just crazy. I worked in Sales myself for about 2 & 1/2 years. I liked it though it wasn't normal retail sales. I worked with Follett Corporation we did sales to both Higher Education and K12. We made software (Density ILS among other things) and also found and recommended products for Higher Ed - Software solutions, online learning, laptops based on students tracks (Engineer laptops vs english student laptop need to be way different) We also dealt with textbooks and stuff.
Sales/And Sales Engineer were merged in our company. I was both. We had some just doing sales only but it wasn't that common. I think a lot of companies will or have merged the two. You generally get commission which is nice.
But the thing that concerns me is that you were recommend products that weren't the best solution. Heck even dangerous - potentially deadly and a liability to the company. You should never do that. If you don't have the best solution for them don't try to make one up customers will appreciate that. It will actually give you more business for your honesty if we didn't have the best solution for someone and someone else would have a better and/or cheaper solution for them we always refer them to that solution even when not our own. I believe it was Macy's that started doing sales like this, they would not sale a product they didn't believe was the right fit, infact they'd recommend another store that they knew probably had it to them. Just my two cents from a few years of sales (and lots of commission to prove it works).
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@ajstringham said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@ajstringham said:
The example you're thinking of is Sophos, in their actual endpoint protection, for $90/PC/year. While I agree that the price is steep, think of the alternative. Sure, you can get Vipre for $15/PC/year. Webroot EP in a 5-user license is $25/PC/year. However, then the customer has to manage all the backend stuff. The $90/PC/year was in a small part for the product, but mostly for the management of the console. Your average home user pays a premium for business-level protection, without requiring any of the knowledge to manage it themselves. I still stand by that being a good value, albeit not the cheapest solution.
No, the example I was thinking of is when you had a farmer bury a cheap switch in the yard and run CAT5 and power underground between consumer routers rather than skipping all of that and saving a few hundred dollars and running fiber. We talked about it and how the farmer was getting screwed because Staples didn't sell the appropriate gear but he trusted you so you were able to sell him a ridiculous solution that I'm sure has shorted out and caused a fire by now. He lost money, wasted effort and took on actually electrical risk all to end up with an unstable, pointless solution when doing the right thing was super cheap and simple (and safe.)
The solution was sound and worked. Fiber would have been an option, but you are right, it's nothing I would have been able to implement. However, when you talk about time, materials, and labor, I don't think it would have been cheaper, or easier.
There is nothing sound about that solution. It violates all kinds of NEC laws. Yeah UF rated power feeder can be directly buried but, no switch could be weather in some sort of box or not. It is not uncommon for this underground things to become breached with water overtime even if sealed. No big deal for an UF rated power feeder but it is for a expose device.
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@ajstringham said:
The solution was sound and worked. Fiber would have been an option, but you are right, it's nothing I would have been able to implement. However, when you talk about time, materials, and labor, I don't think it would have been cheaper, or easier.
At the time we determined that the fiber solution would have been about half the cost and a tiny fraction of the effort. All it required were very entry point unmanaged switches with the fiber options (Netgear Prosafe for example) and one fiber connection. You just plug it in. No power underground or anything like that.
Anyone could implement the fiber solution. Only a crazed electrician could do the "buried switch" approach.
The decision to do something expensive, complex, dangerous and fragile was based purely on the requirement to sell Staples products. The good of the customer definitely took a back seat in that case.
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We also discussed the even more standard solution of using wireless point to point. I can't remember why that was shot down but it was either because Staples didn't carry access points or because it was more expensive than the fiber solution.
But there were two solid solutions available that were turned down because Staples couldn't support them.
The wireless option would be just $185 today and only slightly more then and super simple. Way simpler than burying cable or electric and a switch.
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@DenisKelley said:
Too Bad grounding doesn't provide enough of a load on a circuit to trip a 15/20amp breaker . So you'll still get shocked or killed. 30mA is the deadly point. a GFCI will trip at 5mA (unless it's a modified 30mA)
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@ajstringham said:
So I started a thread over there talking about how I think that, in my career, I want to start working towards more of a sales role over my current straight IT role. I've gotten a lot of good feedback that helped me narrow it down. Sales engineer sounds like the best role for me right now. That being said, I feel like, in a lot of ways, I'm back to square one. I've only worked IT roles up to this point, and while that's essential for the job, I also need sales experience. I have some of that, but not at a business level.
A lot of people have told me that working for a big company allows good lateral growth. However, I can't see myself being a sales engineer where I am currently. Nothing against the company, just I can't see it.
All that being said, how would I make this transition? How would I get companies to give my resume a serious look, given my current experience? Would enlisting a recruiting firm to help me be a good idea? I'm not unhappy with my current job. However, I think I need to F5 my career.
Thanks!
A.J.A.J., I'm being as sincere as I can be here. So here goes. Apologies if it seems random......
I don't think you need to reboot your career. I think you need to reboot how you view your career, how you treat your career and how you grow in your career. I don't believe that you don't in some ways know what you are talking about, but I don't believe that you are really learning from past mistakes and growing from them.
Take for example right now. You have just been hired by a large company, into a position that others would sacrifice a lot just to have a Tier 1 job. You've complained vocally about them almost from the start. If it wasn't what you wanted to do or thought you wanted to do why did you take the job? Truth is man, if I were your hiring manager and I saw some of this stuff, you'd be out before the end of the business day. I wouldn't want someone on my team that wasn't 'all in' so to speak.
But back to where I was going with this. You have to take the opportunities that you are presented. They may not always be exactly what you dream of, but you have to make it something. I was told by my grandfather once that I needed to do EVERY JOB to the best of my ability, and OWN IT. Didn't matter if you were mopping a floor, delivering newspapers, sorting produce at a grocery store or stocking shelves at Wal-Mart. You do every job with excellence and own it. Nothing is ever beneath you.
This came from a guy who grew up during the Great Depression.
You have to leave a mark (not a bad one) on every job you do, no matter how meaningless it may seem to you at the time. Your current role is just as important as a Sales Engineer or Marketer's job is. You have to get that in your mindset and keep it there. Hard work and sacrifice does pay off.
I'm going to tell a little story that came from a family member who works for a large retailer. He had a cart pusher come to him one day and pretty much talk about how his position wasn't important and he didn't feel fulfilled. This family member sat them down and explained how their job really was important. He told him to come in early the next day and he had something for him and a special assigment. He handed him a hand tally counter that next morning and gave this cart pusher a simple set of instructions: Count every single cart that is retrieved from the lot for his entire 8 hour shift. The cart pusher did so. End of the 8 hour shift the total was over 300+ carts (was a slow day). He came back to this family member and reported the tally. This relative then grabbed the sales report for the day and had a few numbers circled that contained the total sales, and average transaction amount. He then explained to this cart pusher that every single one of those sales was over $40 and that his efforts that day helped ensure that those carts kept getting filled. The number was quite high, and he said you could see the "Ah ha" moment in the cart pusher's eyes. This guy ended up getting a raise because that parking lot from that moment on never had a cart one in it, left to bump cars and cause hazards as there was always a car inside ready to go for a customer. That cart pusher is now a manager, only about a year and half later and making triple what they were. This family member told me that ever since that day this former cart pusher has had a sense of purpose and treats every job like they own it and shows pride in what they do.
That's what you need to have more off right now, pride in what you do, not what you can or think you can do. You have to prove yourself better, and that means by starting from the bottom, working your way up and treating every position as important. IT ALSO means taking advice and mentoring from others, and not taking it to heart. You have to take criticism and grow from it. Learn from mistakes. It doesn't mean proving someone wrong or always proclaiming how great you are. You have to have some patience and goals. Your work quality proves that. Your attitude will show it. Be the best damn Tier 1 support rep that has ever been hired.
You might not agree with what I've said and that's fine. I'm being honest with you here. We have ALL been there A.J., your situation is not special. I'm frustrated with not being able to break in to enterprise IT, but you know what, I don't degrade my current employment or status. I still work hard and treat what I do with importance because to me, doing it right by the customer and the employer is the goal.
Take a step back for a moment, and breathe. Gain experience, be humble, and listen to those with the experience, because one day you are going to have to mentor someone just like yourself someday.
Be still, young grasshopper.
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@thecreativeone91 said:
@DenisKelley said:
Too Bad grounding doesn't provide enough of a load on a circuit to trip a 15/20amp breaker . So you'll still get shocked or killed. 30mA is the deadly point. a GFCI will trip at 5mA (unless it's a modified 30mA)
You do realize that this was a joke....a play on words.
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@Bill-Kindle , I do my best at every job I take. The reason I said I didn't want to be a sales engineer at this company is simply because I don't believe in their products. That being said, I will not short the quality of my work or my effort to learn everything I possibly can. I will strive to be the best Tier I tech, and then maybe Tier II. Who knows? Maybe even Tier III.
I have nothing against my company. In fact, the reason I don't feel I could ever work sales for them is because I'd be shorting them. I wouldn't be able to give it my all. I'd be lying to others and myself if I was. Their products are sound, but I couldn't do it personally, and that would be as unfair to them as it is to myself. I intend to take away everything I possibly can from this job. My quality will not suffer.
Thanks for the advice.
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I think, AJ, that you need to work on three plans. A short term (one year) game plan, a mid term (five year) and a long term (blue sky) game plan. All three may change before you get there but these help you to build a path to use to get where you need to go. This gives you a chance to see if your short term plans align with your overall goals.
It's fine (and expected) that you will adjust these over time. That's not bad. But while you don't have to follow a specific path you do need to know which direction to start walking today.
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@ajstringham said:
@Bill-Kindle , I do my best at every job I take. The reason I said I didn't want to be a sales engineer at this company is simply because I don't believe in their products. That being said, I will not short the quality of my work or my effort to learn everything I possibly can. I will strive to be the best Tier I tech, and then maybe Tier II. Who knows? Maybe even Tier III.
I have nothing against my company. In fact, the reason I don't feel I could ever work sales for them is because I'd be shorting them. I wouldn't be able to give it my all. I'd be lying to others and myself if I was. Their products are sound, but I couldn't do it personally, and that would be as unfair to them as it is to myself. I intend to take away everything I possibly can from this job. My quality will not suffer.
Thanks for the advice.
I know you have thanked me, but did you really understand what I was saying?
The very first sentence proves the very point I was making. You took a job that you don't believe in. They should fire you or you should just quit. You're wasting not only your time but their time as well. Doesn't matter if you support the product well, you aren't promotable with an attitude like that.
You then go into the very thing I said not to do. Don't go thinking you are better than a job (I'd be shorting them). Hell A.J., you already have by not believing in their product! This may sound brutal, but that's exactly what I mean. I'm not going to sugar coat it. Your priorities are $%*##$# at the moment.
Step out of yourself for a moment and put yourself the position of your boss at McAfee. What would you do if you just hired a new guy that goes public and states that they do not believe in the product, yet is willing to accept a check from them, and that they won't let their personal feelings infiltrate their work?
A rational response would be, "BS. They need to pack their stuff, I need a team member who is all in." You know this A.J., you're not stupid.
The very reply you have contains those backhanded comments again. Listen to yourself at times, that's all I'm trying to say. Again, it's not your career needing the reboot, it's your viewpoint of your career that needs the reboot.
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@scottalanmiller said:
I think, AJ, that you need to work on three plans. A short term (one year) game plan, a mid term (five year) and a long term (blue sky) game plan. All three may change before you get there but these help you to build a path to use to get where you need to go. This gives you a chance to see if your short term plans align with your overall goals.
It's fine (and expected) that you will adjust these over time. That's not bad. But while you don't have to follow a specific path you do need to know which direction to start walking today.
^^^^ Exactly.
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If you had asked me where I wanted to be ten or twenty years ago, I would not have pictured where I am today. I had a game plan back then and I executed it somewhat sloppily. Then, over time, I opportunistically took what came my way and leveraged that to get where I am.
Twenty years ago.... I would have put myself designing software full time. Even thirty years ago. Ten years ago, I would never have guessed that I was doing "influence" business and solution architecting.
You need a good plan to help support your ability to leverage opportunity.
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@scottalanmiller said:
If you had asked me where I wanted to be ten or twenty years ago, I would not have pictured where I am today. I had a game plan back then and I executed it somewhat sloppily. Then, over time, I opportunistically took what came my way and leveraged that to get where I am.
Twenty years ago.... I would have put myself designing software full time. Even thirty years ago. Ten years ago, I would never have guessed that I was doing "influence" business and solution architecting.
You need a good plan to help support your ability to leverage opportunity.
Just to give even more validity to this point A.J.
10 years ago I was going to be a Locomotive Engineer, working for Union Pacific or CSX. College and IT wasn't at the forefront.
However, back in 2005, a little MSP in Dayton, OH offered me a bench tech position repairing desktops right after I graduated with an A.A.S in Computer Networking Systems from ITT. I took it because they offered me a job, the railroad kind of did but couldn't guarantee me anything.
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@Bill-Kindle said:
@ajstringham said:
@Bill-Kindle , I do my best at every job I take. The reason I said I didn't want to be a sales engineer at this company is simply because I don't believe in their products. That being said, I will not short the quality of my work or my effort to learn everything I possibly can. I will strive to be the best Tier I tech, and then maybe Tier II. Who knows? Maybe even Tier III.
I have nothing against my company. In fact, the reason I don't feel I could ever work sales for them is because I'd be shorting them. I wouldn't be able to give it my all. I'd be lying to others and myself if I was. Their products are sound, but I couldn't do it personally, and that would be as unfair to them as it is to myself. I intend to take away everything I possibly can from this job. My quality will not suffer.
Thanks for the advice.
I know you have thanked me, but did you really understand what I was saying?
The very first sentence proves the very point I was making. You took a job that you don't believe in. They should fire you or you should just quit. You're wasting not only your time but their time as well. Doesn't matter if you support the product well, you aren't promotable with an attitude like that.
You then go into the very thing I said not to do. Don't go thinking you are better than a job (I'd be shorting them). Hell A.J., you already have by not believing in their product! This may sound brutal, but that's exactly what I mean. I'm not going to sugar coat it. Your priorities are $%*##$# at the moment.
Step out of yourself for a moment and put yourself the position of your boss at McAfee. What would you do if you just hired a new guy that goes public and states that they do not believe in the product, yet is willing to accept a check from them, and that they won't let their personal feelings infiltrate their work?
A rational response would be, "BS. They need to pack their stuff, I need a team member who is all in." You know this A.J., you're not stupid.
The very reply you have contains those backhanded comments again. Listen to yourself at times, that's all I'm trying to say. Again, it's not your career needing the reboot, it's your viewpoint of your career that needs the reboot.
I took the job I did because I had no other choice. It wasn't my first choice, but it was my only choice. In Upstate NY, if I interviewed for a job, it was pretty much a sure-fire thing I'd get it. Dallas has more jobs, but a much bigger pool of people to draw from. I interviewed several places to no avail.
The advantage of support vs sales is I don't have to think the product is the best on the market to support it. I need to have the drive to learn how it works, and how to fix it when it's not working. I don't badmouth the product to customers. I also don't praise it. I get down to business and fix what's broken. I've done the job I was hired for. I am where I am for now. I won't short my employer by doing sloppy work. I haven't done anything wrong.
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I think that AJ is correct with his support versus sales thinking here. I can support a lot of things that I don't think are the best. I almost always have to support sub-optimal setups and approaches. My job, normally, is to do the best possible given what is available. The artificial constraint is fine.
In sales, you don't want those artificial constraints. In support, the customer has clearly agreed to the constraints. In sales, they have implicitly but your job is to make them forget that the constraints are there to their own detriment.
