SMB vs Enterprise
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@John-Nicholson said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller You pay them what the value is of the guy who swaps toner in the printer, because WTF would you pay someone 140K who swaps out toner....
Pay tends to trend down based on the lowest level skill things you do.
Tends to, which is why most SMB IT people get paid like juniors in the enterprise, at best, or more often like bench techs. But not always, I've seen shops paying $160K for people who are actually sub-junior in the enterprise.
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@John-Nicholson said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller My Paternity benefits are 15 weeks paid. No SMB could afford to offer that.
Yeah, the whole "our entire IT staff is gone for months all at once" thing is tough unless SMBs smarten up and move to all MSP model.
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@matteo-nunziati said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@John-Nicholson said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller My Paternity benefits are 15 weeks paid. No SMB could afford to offer that.
In italy any company has to grant 9 month full salary to be splitted between father/mother. then you can has for extra time with halved salary. it is fixed by law. of course company can give bonuses but it doesn't happen.
So the father/mother get to pick whose employer has to pay? Any given employer might pay zero or the full nine months?
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@John-Nicholson said in SMB vs Enterprise:
A LOT of SMB skills on the lower end become useless in a large enterprise because those roles are outsourced, or automated.
This is a huge factor. A huge percentage of what SMBs run around doing every day is all scripted in the enterprise. The difference between a one line script installing hundreds or thousands of applications on machines that are never logged into versus one guy waiting for a GUI to pop up over RDP to manually download and install by double clicking on an icon is a huge difference in time wasted for the same task. The cost of growing in the enterprise can be nearly free.
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@John-Nicholson said in SMB vs Enterprise:
I don't know Scott, I think being in the enterprise means everyone is just a guy who is an expert at 1 skill or app and would be helpless if dropped in a SMB. It's SOOO NARROW and soooo focused!
I caught the sarcasm
I never see the focus being as narrow as that and good foundational knowledge applies broadly. Like even though enterprise windows admins never do networking, I've found that by far enterprise windows admins are more likely to know more about networking than SMB generalists. Not always, but more often than not.
The reality is that small shop generalists actually tend to get pretty focused too, even moreso than enterprise people. The difference is that they don't get focused on an IT area but a weird smattering of tasks unique to the organization at hand. All different from one another (company to company) but nothing you can predict, prepare for or escape. One shop might spend 80% of the time supporting end users desk side, another does application deployments all day, another just resets passwords or manages printers. Almost everyone I know in an SMB role has a very repetitive role, but not one that matches any technology set.
The real place where you get variety is the MSP and consulting world.
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@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@matteo-nunziati said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@John-Nicholson said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller My Paternity benefits are 15 weeks paid. No SMB could afford to offer that.
In italy any company has to grant 9 month full salary to be splitted between father/mother. then you can has for extra time with halved salary. it is fixed by law. of course company can give bonuses but it doesn't happen.
So the father/mother get to pick whose employer has to pay? Any given employer might pay zero or the full nine months?
European work law is great, especially if you have a family. It's similar to Italy or better in most European countries.
In the U.S., it's hardcore capitalism... all about pinching pennies and screwing the employees if need be. There's a lot of exceptions (of course, like where John Nicholson works, and my employer is great), but generally speaking I mean. If you have a higher position in an F500 company it is most likely OKAY. But still, never even close to how good it is in Europe. That's why they are always named the happiest countries, especially the Scandinavian counties and Canada.
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SMB cause you get more fun doing everything wrong and then learning from the experience, so on the next SMB you get it right.
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@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@matteo-nunziati said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@John-Nicholson said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller My Paternity benefits are 15 weeks paid. No SMB could afford to offer that.
In italy any company has to grant 9 month full salary to be splitted between father/mother. then you can has for extra time with halved salary. it is fixed by law. of course company can give bonuses but it doesn't happen.
So the father/mother get to pick whose employer has to pay? Any given employer might pay zero or the full nine months?
European work law is great, especially if you have a family. It's similar to Italy or better in most European countries.
In most ways, yes. The problem is that it sometimes creates extreme hardship on employers which, in turn, results in fewer jobs which is a contributor to why so unemployment is as high as it is. And foreign investors often choose to avoid the market because the costs of doing business are so ridiculously high. This sends often highly skilled jobs to other markets which would be perfect to have had in Europe.
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@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@matteo-nunziati said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@John-Nicholson said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller My Paternity benefits are 15 weeks paid. No SMB could afford to offer that.
In italy any company has to grant 9 month full salary to be splitted between father/mother. then you can has for extra time with halved salary. it is fixed by law. of course company can give bonuses but it doesn't happen.
So the father/mother get to pick whose employer has to pay? Any given employer might pay zero or the full nine months?
European work law is great, especially if you have a family. It's similar to Italy or better in most European countries.
In most ways, yes. The problem is that it sometimes creates extreme hardship on employers which, in turn, results in fewer jobs which is a contributor to why so unemployment is as high as it is. And foreign investors often choose to avoid the market because the costs of doing business are so ridiculously high. This sends often highly skilled jobs to other markets which would be perfect to have had in Europe.
Yes I can see that... but I thought they got help from their governments via increased taxes and other ways.
In the past, I've actually done the math to figure out the differences in wage taxes and the benefits you receive.
My results were that an average family pays more in the U.S., even though you are taxed less. You are actually left with more money in your pocket as a worker here (in Sweden), even though you pay more in taxes. (note: it depends on your wages in both countries, the more you make the more you pay in taxes, but I'm speaking in general) But of course nobody focuses on what the actual amounts you pay for things are, they all focus on strictly the ~30-33%-ish taxes in Sweden for example, vs the 15-20% or whatever in the U.S. That alone speaks for itself, but nobody takes into account the massive amount of other costs you pay in the U.S. for the same stuff you get for "free" over here.
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@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
My results were that an average family pays more in the U.S., even though you are taxed less.
I've run the numbers and found that even when I lived and worked in Texas that I was taxed more heavily in the US than in Europe. The US doesn't report all taxes under the heading of taxes to make it look lower. Europe lumps more of your taxes under a single heading. So in reporting, the US looks lower than it really is. My tax rate when living in Texas was 52% in 2009 - 2013. Had I been in NYC, it could have hit 60% for the same work situation in theory (TX has no state tax.) This does not include sales or property taxes, this is purely my income taxes.
That puts it above nearly anyone in the EU.
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@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
But of course nobody focuses on what the actual amounts you pay for things are, they all focus on strictly the ~30-33%-ish taxes in Sweden for example, vs the 15-20% or whatever in the U.S.
Those sound like corporate, rather than income, tax rates.
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@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
But of course nobody focuses on what the actual amounts you pay for things are, they all focus on strictly the ~30-33%-ish taxes in Sweden for example, vs the 15-20% or whatever in the U.S.
Those sound like corporate, rather than income, tax rates.
Yeah. I'm paying ~35% of my check to Federal, State, and Local taxes.
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@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
My results were that an average family pays more in the U.S., even though you are taxed less.
I've run the numbers and found that even when I lived and worked in Texas that I was taxed more heavily in the US than in Europe. The US doesn't report all taxes under the heading of taxes to make it look lower. Europe lumps more of your taxes under a single heading. So in reporting, the US looks lower than it really is. My tax rate when living in Texas was 52% in 2009 - 2013. Had I been in NYC, it could have hit 60% for the same work situation in theory (TX has no state tax.) This does not include sales or property taxes, this is purely my income taxes.
That puts it above nearly anyone in the EU.
Well your wages in the U.S. to put you in the 52% bracket, would I'm sure be higher in Europe too. I didn't look at the actual income:tax% chart, but I'm assuming an income of the same amount in Europe would also result in much higher taxes.
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@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
Yes I can see that... but I thought they got help from their governments via increased taxes and other ways.
That help has to come from the employed, which are fewer. I know that I've done it personally, selecting non-EU locations for workers because it doesn't make sense to jump through all of the hoops required to pay people in Europe. It only makes sense if you need physical, in person work done (e.g. not very high end and rarely very technical.)
As someone who worked for a massive company's offshored IT team in Manhattan, I dealt with this for a long time. Tens of thousands of six figure workers living and paid in Manhattan to do EU work because it was cheaper to have them in Manhattan than in the EU.
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@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
Well your wages in the U.S. to put you in the 52% bracket, would I'm sure be higher in Europe too.
No, it was definitely a percentage or two higher in the US for the same pay.
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@dafyre said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
But of course nobody focuses on what the actual amounts you pay for things are, they all focus on strictly the ~30-33%-ish taxes in Sweden for example, vs the 15-20% or whatever in the U.S.
Those sound like corporate, rather than income, tax rates.
Yeah. I'm paying ~35% of my check to Federal, State, and Local taxes.
You must include all of your healthcare costs if you are in the US as those are actually a federal tax now.
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@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
Well your wages in the U.S. to put you in the 52% bracket, would I'm sure be higher in Europe too.
No, it was definitely a percentage or two higher in the US for the same pay.
Didn't know that. Back when I was looking at things, it was a big difference. But I guess at some point it gets to the same, like when you compare cold temperatures in Fahrenheit and Celsius... in the negatives there is a point where they are the same
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@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@dafyre said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
But of course nobody focuses on what the actual amounts you pay for things are, they all focus on strictly the ~30-33%-ish taxes in Sweden for example, vs the 15-20% or whatever in the U.S.
Those sound like corporate, rather than income, tax rates.
Yeah. I'm paying ~35% of my check to Federal, State, and Local taxes.
You must include all of your healthcare costs if you are in the US as those are actually a federal tax now.
I do. That's every deduction fro my paycheck.
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@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@dafyre said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
But of course nobody focuses on what the actual amounts you pay for things are, they all focus on strictly the ~30-33%-ish taxes in Sweden for example, vs the 15-20% or whatever in the U.S.
Those sound like corporate, rather than income, tax rates.
Yeah. I'm paying ~35% of my check to Federal, State, and Local taxes.
You must include all of your healthcare costs if you are in the US as those are actually a federal tax now.
You also need to include whatever out of pocket expenses you pay for doctor and hospital visits, prescriptions, daycare/childcare, certain education expenses, etc. When you actually add all the things up that a typical family (with college education) pays for, you're much better off in some EU countries.
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@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
Well your wages in the U.S. to put you in the 52% bracket, would I'm sure be higher in Europe too.
No, it was definitely a percentage or two higher in the US for the same pay.
Didn't know that. Back when I was looking at things, it was a big difference. But I guess at some point it gets to the same, like when you compare cold temperatures in Fahrenheit and Celsius... in the negatives there is a point where they are the same
Yeah, I would actually have lowered my taxes moving to almost anywhere in the EU. Then gotten loads of benefits on top of paying fewer taxes. Only bad part is that the US looks to see what you pay in the EU and if it is not as high as in the US, you pay the difference to the US anyway. So you never actually get to lower it.
