Burned by Eschewing Best Practices

scottalanmiller

Alex.Gaft May 26, 2017 at 1:45 AM

We use exchange on VMware for our 3000 accounts without any problems, no need to record here all the pros for virtualization. Virtualization and cloud are the future.

scottalanmiller

ICH May 26, 2017 at 3:10 AM

Quite simply you are right and the VAR is wrong. Do NOT trust him, no matter how many years experience he is quoting you. He is simply WAY behind the curve here. OBR10 (One Big RAID 10) has been best practice for several years now. Find a new VAR. I would not give anyone the time of day if they were spouting the rubbish that your VAR is. If he wants to play who can p!ss highest up the wall on experience, I have been an IT pro since 1979.

It is very easy to find yourself resistant to new ideas, and to rely on what you know has worked for you in the past, but you have to stay up to date, and embrace the changes in the industry, or you become irrelevant. The VAR are not only offering bad advice, they are rejecting the correct way of doing things, for whatever reason, either to increase their profit margin or simply due to incompetence. Your VAR is now irrelevant and you should switch to a company that is offering up to date ideas.
And yes, everything should be virtual, including Exchange if you are running it on-premise.

scottalanmiller

cavemanager
Anaheim
OP
cavemanager May 26, 2017 at 7:03 AM

ICH wrote:

Quite simply you are right and the VAR is wrong. Do NOT trust him, no matter how many years experience he is quoting you. He is simply WAY behind the curve here. OBR10 (One Big RAID 10) has been best practice for several years now. Find a new VAR. I would not give anyone the time of day if they were spouting the rubbish that your VAR is.  If he wants to play who can p!ss highest up the wall on experience, I have been an IT pro since 1979.

It is very easy to find yourself resistant to new ideas, and to rely on what you know has worked for you in the past, but you have to stay up to date, and embrace the changes in the industry, or you become irrelevant. The VAR are not only offering bad advice, they are rejecting the correct way of doing things, for whatever reason, either to increase their profit margin or simply due to incompetence. Your VAR is now irrelevant and you should switch to a company that is offering up to date ideas.
And yes, everything should be virtual, including Exchange if you are running  it on-premise.

Thanks for the advice. I see that a lot of you are saying OBR10 is recommended and best practice now. Can you or someone else provide me with a source that says this, or is it just general knowledge?

scottalanmiller

OP
cavemanager May 26, 2017 at 7:06 AM

-Corbin- wrote:

Honestly, they are suggesting the method we all followed back int the 90s mainly because of how expensive hard drive space was.  The thought was to put the OS on a fast drive and everything else on slower, larger drives.  Now the recommended method is to do one big raid 10.  Hard drive space is cheap, and raid 10 give the redundancy and speed.  There are cases for raid 6 and SQL servers, but those aren't the norm.

http://www.thecloudcalculator.com/calculators/disk-raid-and-iops.html

Can you show me any sources that say one big RAID 10 volume is recommended? I notice a lot of you are saying that, and it would be nice to have something to show my VAR plus I would just like to see it.

scottalanmiller

CrimsonKidA May 26, 2017 at 8:22 AM

cavemanager wrote:
Can you show me any sources that say one big RAID 10 volume is recommended? I notice a lot of you are saying that, and it would be nice to have something to show my VAR plus I would just like to see it.
+ expand

ORB10 is just a RAID10 comprised of more than the minimal 4 disks, yes.

As for an article to read about it, Scott Alan Miller (who I bet might have some choice words for your, ahem..."VAR") wrote one that addresses your exact concerns in this thread. Have a look: http://www.smbitjournal.com/2012/11/one-big-raid-10-a-new-standard-in-server-storage/

scottalanmiller

toby wells May 26, 2017 at 8:22 AM

cavemanager wrote:
Can you show me any sources that say one big RAID 10 volume is recommended? I notice a lot of you are saying that, and it would be nice to have something to show my VAR plus I would just like to see it.
+ expand

Its like asking an architect why arches are good for bridges

They just are

RAID 5 was deprecated by most vendors many years ago, I think Dell were last to issue something but that was in 2012!

https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/251735-new-raid-level-recommendations-from-dell

5 Years since its probably one of the most discussed topics on Spiceworks

The maths and practical experience is just overwhelming

scottalanmiller

CrimsonKidA May 26, 2017 at 8:24 AM

toby wells wrote:
Its like asking an architect why arches are good for bridges

They just are
+ expand

Toby, while you are right, this is the same kind of lip-service (no offense) he's getting from his VAR. He needs facts here to back up his argument.

scottalanmiller

Northlandeng May 26, 2017 at 8:28 AM

One Big RAID 10 - A New Standard In Server Storage

scottalanmiller

CrimsonKidA May 26, 2017 at 8:35 AM

toby wells wrote:

Neither setup is correct...

- Mail in 365

- Virtualise all servers!

The idea that anyone would be configuring physical devices in 2017 is crazy. Virtualise all workloads

Virtualize everything. It's an open-and-shut case, yes. Not to steer the thread too far off course, but...

O365 or Hosted Exchange while commonly accepted as "best practice" are, in reality (or at least my reality), not always the most economical solution. The "hidden costs" of managing Exchange on-premise (we're talking your wage/salary here) are often overhyped and inflated, especially if:

The business already owns the hardware (hypervisor hosts)
The IT Pro administering Exchange would be employed full-time/salaried regardless of keeping Exchange on-prem or outsourcing to O365/HE

We only have about 100 mailboxes and I've ran the numbers ($4/mo per mailbox for HE) on multiple occasions by myself and even with our CFO and it has never came out cheaper to move to O365 or even HE (vs an Exchange 2016 migration). Just another perspective for you. Tip of the iceberg here, really. Google "pros and cons of moving to O365" and you will find a LOT of information against it!

scottalanmiller

Evan7191 May 26, 2017 at 8:58 AM

I agree with the others that you should use one big RAID10.

I won't say that you should fire your VAR, but you should not let a sales person design a system for you. Sales exist to sell products in order to make money. Their goal is for you to purchase their goods and/or services. Their goal is not to give you the best solution for your needs. You must look out for your environment and tell them what you need. If they won't sell what you need, then you can find a different VAR who will.

scottalanmiller

Scott Alan Miller May 26, 2017 at 9:05 AM

Niagara Technology Group (NTG) is an IT service provider.

cavemanager wrote:

Basically, we are a Dell shop, and we have about 18 Dell servers and I have seen that the majority of them have the OS on a RAID 1 volume (2 drives) and then any additional data volumes are always in a RAID 5 config. This seems to be their thing and that's how my VAR wants to set this new server up as well.

So first things first... your server vendor and your VAR are not your friends nor do they provide RAID advice. They are sales people and they use random defaults for testing purposes. They do not have a "thing" as applies to you and what they use for testing is not a recommendation as to how you should use their servers. You honestly should never even know what they do because the first thing that you do when getting a server is blow it away and do a proper install - always, no exceptions. That includes wiping the RAID configs away and setting it up for YOUR needs, not for THEIR needs.

Also, never get advice from a VAR, ever. VARs are sales organizations. Get advice from IT, products from a VAR.

scottalanmiller

Scott Alan Miller May 26, 2017 at 9:06 AM

Niagara Technology Group (NTG) is an IT service provider.

Evan7191 wrote:

I won't say that you should fire your VAR, but you should not let a sales person design a system for you.

Same here. The fault is in expecting technical competence or guidance from sales people. That's not to imply that the salesman isn't good.

scottalanmiller

Scott Alan Miller May 26, 2017 at 9:22 AM

Niagara Technology Group (NTG) is an IT service provider.

cavemanager wrote:
Can you show me any sources that say one big RAID 10 volume is recommended? I notice a lot of you are saying that, and it would be nice to have something to show my VAR plus I would just like to see it.
+ expand

https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/262196-one-big-raid-10-the-new-standard-in-server-storage

http://www.smbitjournal.com/2012/11/one-big-raid-10-a-new-standard-in-server-storage/

However, this is not a discussion for your VAR, at all. This isn't their expertise, there is no reason for them to know about this. They aren't IT people. If they just find this an interesting conversation, sure, show it to them. Nothing wrong with that. But there is no reason for your VAR to have any visibility into what you are doing. Salespeople don't design servers.

scottalanmiller

Scott Alan Miller May 26, 2017 at 9:25 AM

Niagara Technology Group (NTG) is an IT service provider.

CrimsonKidA wrote:
Google "pros and cons of moving to O365" and you will find a LOT of information against it!

There is another thread on this right now. Just be aware that hosted email doesn't imply O365. O365 is a premium luxury service, as is Exchange in general, and people often use it as the high cost example to debunk. But there are services at a fraction of that cost like Rackspace and Zoho and Appadillo, that run enterprise email so cheaply that it is those that make for the "you can't afford to run it in house" arguments. O365 is only if you are comparing Exchange to Exchange, not email to email.

scottalanmiller

Scott Alan Miller May 26, 2017 at 9:26 AM

Niagara Technology Group (NTG) is an IT service provider.

cavemanager wrote:

Basically, we are a Dell shop, and we have about 18 Dell servers ...

That's a LOT of servers. How big are you? We'd normally expect that from 1,000+ users.

scottalanmiller

Scott Alan Miller May 26, 2017 at 9:28 AM

Niagara Technology Group (NTG) is an IT service provider.

cavemanager wrote:

What I want to do is to set up a single physical RAID 10 volume made up of 4x 600GB disks and then create two logical partitions, one for OS and one for data. To me, this makes sense and will be fast and provide enough storage to meet our needs for the next five years or so.

You are correct, with four disks there is no other option.

You'll want this under your belt as well...

http://www.smbitjournal.com/2012/12/the-history-of-array-splitting/

scottalanmiller

Scott Alan Miller May 26, 2017 at 9:30 AM

Niagara Technology Group (NTG) is an IT service provider.

cavemanager wrote:
 volume...

Then he finally just responds that I need to trust him on this one and that he has X amount of years of experience, etc. He had also told me that "nobody uses RAID 10", which, according to the Internet, is not true.

I don't want to disrespect someone with more experience....

Just read this bit. Fire him, now. This is an INTERN level of incompetence. The problem here is that he's just an incompetent salesman who is trying to trick you by implying he's an experienced IT pro. He's not. He's just a scumbag looking to take your money. That statement is beyond unprofessional and it means you can't trust him.... ever. This is such a degree of improper pressure and incompetence, walk away, right now. That guy is reckless and willing to hurt you to make a quick buck.

scottalanmiller

Scott Alan Miller May 26, 2017 at 9:33 AM

Niagara Technology Group (NTG) is an IT service provider.

cavemanager wrote:
I also forgot to mention that in my original post that I had also been considering doing a virtual Exchange server. My CTO is also a bit old-school and feels more comfortable having a separate physical server for email, just in case. But we did just get a brand new Dell SAN this year and we have a pretty killer virtual environment (vmware 6) and this is probably the direction we should be going. Maybe I will try to convince him again..
+ expand

Wow, just wow. So things here...

Your CTO is NOT old school, he's incompetent. Never use "old school" to mean "can't do his job and is clueless." We've virtualized critical workloads since 1964. What he's telling you isn't "old school" it's just "wrong."
A CTO is not an IT job role, why is a CTO involved in this conversation?
His "emotional needs" put the company in jeopardy and are very possibly for some person goal. This is the kind of thing we hear when someone is funneling money to a buddy at a VAR.
Why do you have a SAN? Makes no sense given the rest of your environment.

scottalanmiller

Scott Alan Miller May 26, 2017 at 9:35 AM

Niagara Technology Group (NTG) is an IT service provider.

CrimsonKidA wrote:
Fire your VAR. 

No, seriously. Like yesterday, FIRE THEM. They are either incompetent or (worse yet) exploiting your for own their bottom line!
+ expand

This. And your CTO. Show this thread to your CEO. You've got deep rooted problems that could simply be deep seated incompetence, but no one with a CTO title can be excused for being this clueless. This points to corruption and possibly money laundering. I'm not saying that to be dramatic, I deal with this regularly and this is how you spot people stealing money first.

scottalanmiller

Scott Alan Miller May 26, 2017 at 9:38 AM

Niagara Technology Group (NTG) is an IT service provider.

CrimsonKidA wrote:
It's not "probably" the direction you should be going, it definitely is. Yours (and most companies) should have been moving to a fully virtualized environment 5-7 years ago at least. There are literally no negatives, only positives. Your CTO's "old school" mentality is most likely just rooted in stubbornness and ignorance. Do the research and present it to him. This is really a black-and-white issue at this point. There is some merit to still keeping a physical DC, but that's the only one I know of.  
+ expand

Crimson is all over this with good info. He is correct, there is zero excuse for not being virtual. This is 2017, we are a full decade past the last, lingering excuses and those were purely technical in nature. The only thing I'll disagree with here is that there is no excuse for a physical DC, that would suggest all kinds of things that are not accurate. No DC should be physical, ever. The only real "special cases" in not going virtual today are desktops and even that is almost gone.