Buying vs Saving Economic Theory
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You can say, from similar data, that seeing a doctor more often causes you to die. When, in reality, as you get old you need to see a doctor more often. Or that grey hair kills you, but it is just that old people have grey hair. Or that people with driver's licenses die more often than those without - but those without are often children.
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@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
Nah, you're making a claim that doesn't logically make sense. So I'm asking you to provide information to back it up.
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@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Good point, and that's a specific aspect that I had mentioned - things like keeping a garden, spending time with family, time with pets, exercising, volunteering with the unfortunate, helping out at church, working at the community center. Think about active housewives (or househusbands) today. For those that can afford it and don't have kids, non-working spouses aren't specifically idle. They tend to do a lot of things. Plus there are simple things like time to play more video games, watch more television, read more books. Sure, people might be more "idle" but if you remember that 98% of work today is actually idle time... they'd be no more idle, probably nowhere close to as idle.
You're absolutely right - but what percentage of people fall into that category? I'm guessing not that many. In the US, most households require two person incomes to survive.
What does it matter how many? The point is, when it does happen it works out really well most of the time.
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@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Again, I'm not against the idea in general. It's moving past all of the current preconceived notions for all of us old timers.
Find the foundation of those notions. Why do you have them? What's the basis for what seem like crazy ideas. I understand that baseline income is radical and untested on scale and change is risky and scary, I'm totally on board with "this is a big risk." But from an economic model and logic standpoint, I'm failing to see any arguments against it, other than the obvious one of "we can't know until we try."
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@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
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@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
Right, which makes it not a retirement problem. People retiring when they do mostly because of health - they can't keep working easily. They retire BECAUSE they are dying. That your father is still working means that he will be even older when he retires, he will likely retire because he has to and will not live for a really long time after he does - adding to the statistic while actually having nothing to do with it.
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@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Good point, and that's a specific aspect that I had mentioned - things like keeping a garden, spending time with family, time with pets, exercising, volunteering with the unfortunate, helping out at church, working at the community center. Think about active housewives (or househusbands) today. For those that can afford it and don't have kids, non-working spouses aren't specifically idle. They tend to do a lot of things. Plus there are simple things like time to play more video games, watch more television, read more books. Sure, people might be more "idle" but if you remember that 98% of work today is actually idle time... they'd be no more idle, probably nowhere close to as idle.
You're absolutely right - but what percentage of people fall into that category? I'm guessing not that many. In the US, most households require two person incomes to survive.
What does it matter how many? The point is, when it does happen it works out really well most of the time.
And I've never disagreed with the premise. I'm just looking at the transitional time from now to that being the norm. You'll see all kinds of Pepperidge Farm memes - remember when you had to work for a living - Pepperidge Farm remembers.
I do agree that in the long run, you're probably right. Our technology will make most if not all work unnecessary, people will be able to do whatever they want.
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@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
Right, which makes it not a retirement problem. People retiring when they do mostly because of health - they can't keep working easily. They retire BECAUSE they are dying. That your father is still working means that he will be even older when he retires, he will likely retire because he has to and will not live for a really long time after he does - adding to the statistic while actually having nothing to do with it.
I wonder how much of America can afford to retire - And these problems have nothing to do with the long term, normalized effects of your proposal - which I agree with you will ultimately be good for humanity.
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@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
Right, which makes it not a retirement problem. People retiring when they do mostly because of health - they can't keep working easily. They retire BECAUSE they are dying. That your father is still working means that he will be even older when he retires, he will likely retire because he has to and will not live for a really long time after he does - adding to the statistic while actually having nothing to do with it.
I wonder how much of America can afford to retire - And these problems have nothing to do with the long term, normalized effects of your proposal - which I agree with you will ultimately be good for humanity.
If I recall correctly the average retirement savings in the US is just above $100,000. Something like $300 a month for the remainder of their life.
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@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
Right, which makes it not a retirement problem. People retiring when they do mostly because of health - they can't keep working easily. They retire BECAUSE they are dying. That your father is still working means that he will be even older when he retires, he will likely retire because he has to and will not live for a really long time after he does - adding to the statistic while actually having nothing to do with it.
I wonder how much of America can afford to retire - And these problems have nothing to do with the long term, normalized effects of your proposal - which I agree with you will ultimately be good for humanity.
If I recall correctly the average retirement savings in the US is just above $100,000. Something like $300 a month for the remainder of their life.
That's pretty hard to live on.
-
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
Right, which makes it not a retirement problem. People retiring when they do mostly because of health - they can't keep working easily. They retire BECAUSE they are dying. That your father is still working means that he will be even older when he retires, he will likely retire because he has to and will not live for a really long time after he does - adding to the statistic while actually having nothing to do with it.
I wonder how much of America can afford to retire - And these problems have nothing to do with the long term, normalized effects of your proposal - which I agree with you will ultimately be good for humanity.
If I recall correctly the average retirement savings in the US is just above $100,000. Something like $300 a month for the remainder of their life.
That's pretty hard to live on.
Yes... that is true. Although there is a lot of personal responsibility to be taken into account for this.
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@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
Right, which makes it not a retirement problem. People retiring when they do mostly because of health - they can't keep working easily. They retire BECAUSE they are dying. That your father is still working means that he will be even older when he retires, he will likely retire because he has to and will not live for a really long time after he does - adding to the statistic while actually having nothing to do with it.
I wonder how much of America can afford to retire - And these problems have nothing to do with the long term, normalized effects of your proposal - which I agree with you will ultimately be good for humanity.
If I recall correctly the average retirement savings in the US is just above $100,000. Something like $300 a month for the remainder of their life.
That's pretty hard to live on.
Yes... that is true. Although there is a lot of personal responsibility to be taken into account for this.
That's true, but only so true considering the state of poverty.... How much to you think a family of 4 with two working adults making minimum wage or barely over should be able to save for retirement?
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@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
Right, which makes it not a retirement problem. People retiring when they do mostly because of health - they can't keep working easily. They retire BECAUSE they are dying. That your father is still working means that he will be even older when he retires, he will likely retire because he has to and will not live for a really long time after he does - adding to the statistic while actually having nothing to do with it.
I wonder how much of America can afford to retire - And these problems have nothing to do with the long term, normalized effects of your proposal - which I agree with you will ultimately be good for humanity.
If I recall correctly the average retirement savings in the US is just above $100,000. Something like $300 a month for the remainder of their life.
That's pretty hard to live on.
Yes... that is true. Although there is a lot of personal responsibility to be taken into account for this.
That's true, but only so true considering the state of poverty.... How much to you think a family of 4 with two working adults making minimum wage or barely over should be able to save for retirement?
Family of 4 making minimum wage? They can barely afford food, transportation, housing, and utilities. Minimum wage hasn't provided the ability to survive in a long time.
-
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
Right, which makes it not a retirement problem. People retiring when they do mostly because of health - they can't keep working easily. They retire BECAUSE they are dying. That your father is still working means that he will be even older when he retires, he will likely retire because he has to and will not live for a really long time after he does - adding to the statistic while actually having nothing to do with it.
I wonder how much of America can afford to retire - And these problems have nothing to do with the long term, normalized effects of your proposal - which I agree with you will ultimately be good for humanity.
If I recall correctly the average retirement savings in the US is just above $100,000. Something like $300 a month for the remainder of their life.
That's pretty hard to live on.
Yes... that is true. Although there is a lot of personal responsibility to be taken into account for this.
That's true, but only so true considering the state of poverty.... How much to you think a family of 4 with two working adults making minimum wage or barely over should be able to save for retirement?
Family of 4 making minimum wage? They can barely afford food, transportation, housing, and utilities. Minimum wage hasn't provided the ability to survive in a long time.
If we were like other countries and multiple generations of our families lived with us it would def be a lot more viable, but we expect people in their early 20's to be living on their own after college. A lot of my friends have good jobs and still live with their parents. I wish I could. I'd save for a house and be done with it.
-
@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
Right, which makes it not a retirement problem. People retiring when they do mostly because of health - they can't keep working easily. They retire BECAUSE they are dying. That your father is still working means that he will be even older when he retires, he will likely retire because he has to and will not live for a really long time after he does - adding to the statistic while actually having nothing to do with it.
I wonder how much of America can afford to retire - And these problems have nothing to do with the long term, normalized effects of your proposal - which I agree with you will ultimately be good for humanity.
If I recall correctly the average retirement savings in the US is just above $100,000. Something like $300 a month for the remainder of their life.
That's pretty hard to live on.
Yes... that is true. Although there is a lot of personal responsibility to be taken into account for this.
That's true, but only so true considering the state of poverty.... How much to you think a family of 4 with two working adults making minimum wage or barely over should be able to save for retirement?
Family of 4 making minimum wage? They can barely afford food, transportation, housing, and utilities. Minimum wage hasn't provided the ability to survive in a long time.
If we were like other countries and multiple generations of our families lived with us it would def be a lot more viable, but we expect people in their early 20's to be living on their own after college. A lot of my friends have good jobs and still live with their parents. I wish I could. I'd save for a house and be done with it.
Is this still true? Do other industrialized nations still have multiple generations under one roof?
-
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
Right, which makes it not a retirement problem. People retiring when they do mostly because of health - they can't keep working easily. They retire BECAUSE they are dying. That your father is still working means that he will be even older when he retires, he will likely retire because he has to and will not live for a really long time after he does - adding to the statistic while actually having nothing to do with it.
I wonder how much of America can afford to retire - And these problems have nothing to do with the long term, normalized effects of your proposal - which I agree with you will ultimately be good for humanity.
If I recall correctly the average retirement savings in the US is just above $100,000. Something like $300 a month for the remainder of their life.
That's pretty hard to live on.
Yes... that is true. Although there is a lot of personal responsibility to be taken into account for this.
That's true, but only so true considering the state of poverty.... How much to you think a family of 4 with two working adults making minimum wage or barely over should be able to save for retirement?
Family of 4 making minimum wage? They can barely afford food, transportation, housing, and utilities. Minimum wage hasn't provided the ability to survive in a long time.
If we were like other countries and multiple generations of our families lived with us it would def be a lot more viable, but we expect people in their early 20's to be living on their own after college. A lot of my friends have good jobs and still live with their parents. I wish I could. I'd save for a house and be done with it.
Is this still true? Do other industrialized nations still have multiple generations under one roof?
My aunt Keiko said Japan is still like that. I'm sure the area matters though.
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@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
Right, which makes it not a retirement problem. People retiring when they do mostly because of health - they can't keep working easily. They retire BECAUSE they are dying. That your father is still working means that he will be even older when he retires, he will likely retire because he has to and will not live for a really long time after he does - adding to the statistic while actually having nothing to do with it.
I wonder how much of America can afford to retire - And these problems have nothing to do with the long term, normalized effects of your proposal - which I agree with you will ultimately be good for humanity.
If I recall correctly the average retirement savings in the US is just above $100,000. Something like $300 a month for the remainder of their life.
That's pretty hard to live on.
Yes... that is true. Although there is a lot of personal responsibility to be taken into account for this.
That's true, but only so true considering the state of poverty.... How much to you think a family of 4 with two working adults making minimum wage or barely over should be able to save for retirement?
Family of 4 making minimum wage? They can barely afford food, transportation, housing, and utilities. Minimum wage hasn't provided the ability to survive in a long time.
If we were like other countries and multiple generations of our families lived with us it would def be a lot more viable, but we expect people in their early 20's to be living on their own after college. A lot of my friends have good jobs and still live with their parents. I wish I could. I'd save for a house and be done with it.
Is this still true? Do other industrialized nations still have multiple generations under one roof?
It is at least to a limited degree.
My UK friend has one adult child still living home.
A German friend shares a house (and family) with his mother. And another German friend, the family owns an apt building (small one) and they all live there.
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@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
Right, which makes it not a retirement problem. People retiring when they do mostly because of health - they can't keep working easily. They retire BECAUSE they are dying. That your father is still working means that he will be even older when he retires, he will likely retire because he has to and will not live for a really long time after he does - adding to the statistic while actually having nothing to do with it.
I wonder how much of America can afford to retire - And these problems have nothing to do with the long term, normalized effects of your proposal - which I agree with you will ultimately be good for humanity.
If I recall correctly the average retirement savings in the US is just above $100,000. Something like $300 a month for the remainder of their life.
That's pretty hard to live on.
Yes... that is true. Although there is a lot of personal responsibility to be taken into account for this.
That's true, but only so true considering the state of poverty.... How much to you think a family of 4 with two working adults making minimum wage or barely over should be able to save for retirement?
Family of 4 making minimum wage? They can barely afford food, transportation, housing, and utilities. Minimum wage hasn't provided the ability to survive in a long time.
If we were like other countries and multiple generations of our families lived with us it would def be a lot more viable, but we expect people in their early 20's to be living on their own after college. A lot of my friends have good jobs and still live with their parents. I wish I could. I'd save for a house and be done with it.
Is this still true? Do other industrialized nations still have multiple generations under one roof?
It is at least to a limited degree.
My UK friend has one adult child still living home.
A German friend shares a house (and family) with his mother. And another German friend, the family owns an apt building (small one) and they all live there.
Is that different in the US? Anecdotally I know many people may age, 20-30, that are still living with their parent's. This includes starting careers and families at their parent's home.
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@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
Right, which makes it not a retirement problem. People retiring when they do mostly because of health - they can't keep working easily. They retire BECAUSE they are dying. That your father is still working means that he will be even older when he retires, he will likely retire because he has to and will not live for a really long time after he does - adding to the statistic while actually having nothing to do with it.
I wonder how much of America can afford to retire - And these problems have nothing to do with the long term, normalized effects of your proposal - which I agree with you will ultimately be good for humanity.
If I recall correctly the average retirement savings in the US is just above $100,000. Something like $300 a month for the remainder of their life.
That's pretty hard to live on.
Yes... that is true. Although there is a lot of personal responsibility to be taken into account for this.
That's true, but only so true considering the state of poverty.... How much to you think a family of 4 with two working adults making minimum wage or barely over should be able to save for retirement?
Family of 4 making minimum wage? They can barely afford food, transportation, housing, and utilities. Minimum wage hasn't provided the ability to survive in a long time.
If we were like other countries and multiple generations of our families lived with us it would def be a lot more viable, but we expect people in their early 20's to be living on their own after college. A lot of my friends have good jobs and still live with their parents. I wish I could. I'd save for a house and be done with it.
Is this still true? Do other industrialized nations still have multiple generations under one roof?
It is at least to a limited degree.
My UK friend has one adult child still living home.
A German friend shares a house (and family) with his mother. And another German friend, the family owns an apt building (small one) and they all live there.
Is that different in the US? Anecdotally I know many people may age, 20-30, that are still living with their parent's. This includes starting careers and families at their parent's home.
I mean culturally where people live together their entire lives
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@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
Right, which makes it not a retirement problem. People retiring when they do mostly because of health - they can't keep working easily. They retire BECAUSE they are dying. That your father is still working means that he will be even older when he retires, he will likely retire because he has to and will not live for a really long time after he does - adding to the statistic while actually having nothing to do with it.
I wonder how much of America can afford to retire - And these problems have nothing to do with the long term, normalized effects of your proposal - which I agree with you will ultimately be good for humanity.
If I recall correctly the average retirement savings in the US is just above $100,000. Something like $300 a month for the remainder of their life.
That's pretty hard to live on.
Yes... that is true. Although there is a lot of personal responsibility to be taken into account for this.
That's true, but only so true considering the state of poverty.... How much to you think a family of 4 with two working adults making minimum wage or barely over should be able to save for retirement?
Family of 4 making minimum wage? They can barely afford food, transportation, housing, and utilities. Minimum wage hasn't provided the ability to survive in a long time.
If we were like other countries and multiple generations of our families lived with us it would def be a lot more viable, but we expect people in their early 20's to be living on their own after college. A lot of my friends have good jobs and still live with their parents. I wish I could. I'd save for a house and be done with it.
Is this still true? Do other industrialized nations still have multiple generations under one roof?
It is at least to a limited degree.
My UK friend has one adult child still living home.
A German friend shares a house (and family) with his mother. And another German friend, the family owns an apt building (small one) and they all live there.
Is that different in the US? Anecdotally I know many people may age, 20-30, that are still living with their parent's. This includes starting careers and families at their parent's home.
Oh, yeah I don't. But that's just a difference of our samplings.. completely expected.
