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    Cost Study: 4 Node Scale vs. 4 Node VMware IPOD

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved IT Discussion
    scalescale hc3vmwareesxiemcsanstorageinverted pyramid of doomipodcost comparison
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    • scottalanmillerS
      scottalanmiller @htbase
      last edited by

      @htbase thanks for jumping in to the "mix".

      htbaseH 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • htbaseH
        htbase @Dashrender
        last edited by

        @Dashrender Yep, in that configuration we have 24 TB of SSD.

        If we added an additional 32TB of HDD (given the fact you would already have 24TB of SSD), it would add around $13,000 to the total cost provided before

        DashrenderD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
        • htbaseH
          htbase @scottalanmiller
          last edited by

          @scottalanmiller :thumbsup_tone2:

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • DashrenderD
            Dashrender @htbase
            last edited by

            @htbase said in Cost Study: 4 Node Scale vs. 4 Node VMware IPOD:

            @Dashrender Yep, in that configuration we have 24 TB of SSD.

            If we added an additional 32TB of HDD (given the fact you would already have 24TB of SSD), it would add around $13,000 to the total cost provided before

            So rolling that all together (though we have no idea what it looks like in configuration) we have
            4 units (dual xeon 2650, 256 GB RAM, 6 TB SSD, 8 TB HDD, 5 yr warranty/support) = $89,600

            Is that right?

            So we have better processors, double the RAM and of the 56 TB of storage 30% more of it is SSD. right?

            htbaseH 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • DashrenderD
              Dashrender
              last edited by

              Scott didn't mention the RAID controller in his Dells, what kind of RAID are in your boxes? how about the warranty, what are the details?

              scottalanmillerS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • scottalanmillerS
                scottalanmiller @Dashrender
                last edited by

                @Dashrender said in Cost Study: 4 Node Scale vs. 4 Node VMware IPOD:

                Scott didn't mention the RAID controller in his Dells, what kind of RAID are in your boxes? how about the warranty, what are the details?

                No RAID with hyperconverged players. Not that there couldn't be, but no one uses one. Since everyone has to have RAIN anyway at a higher layer, having a RAID controller doesn't add any value. So none in the Scale, VSAN, Starwind or IPOD examples. Not just no RAID controller, no RAID at all. HTBase is the same in that regard.

                DashrenderD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                • DashrenderD
                  Dashrender @scottalanmiller
                  last edited by

                  @scottalanmiller said in Cost Study: 4 Node Scale vs. 4 Node VMware IPOD:

                  @Dashrender said in Cost Study: 4 Node Scale vs. 4 Node VMware IPOD:

                  Scott didn't mention the RAID controller in his Dells, what kind of RAID are in your boxes? how about the warranty, what are the details?

                  No RAID with hyperconverged players. Not that there couldn't be, but no one uses one. Since everyone has to have RAIN anyway at a higher layer, having a RAID controller doesn't add any value. So none in the Scale, VSAN, Starwind or IPOD examples. Not just no RAID controller, no RAID at all. HTBase is the same in that regard.

                  for the uninitiated, you just blew my mind a little.

                  travisdh1T scottalanmillerS 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
                  • travisdh1T
                    travisdh1 @Dashrender
                    last edited by

                    @Dashrender said in Cost Study: 4 Node Scale vs. 4 Node VMware IPOD:

                    @scottalanmiller said in Cost Study: 4 Node Scale vs. 4 Node VMware IPOD:

                    @Dashrender said in Cost Study: 4 Node Scale vs. 4 Node VMware IPOD:

                    Scott didn't mention the RAID controller in his Dells, what kind of RAID are in your boxes? how about the warranty, what are the details?

                    No RAID with hyperconverged players. Not that there couldn't be, but no one uses one. Since everyone has to have RAIN anyway at a higher layer, having a RAID controller doesn't add any value. So none in the Scale, VSAN, Starwind or IPOD examples. Not just no RAID controller, no RAID at all. HTBase is the same in that regard.

                    for the uninitiated, you just blew my mind a little.

                    @Dashrender I was SO confused the first few times I ran into RAIN being discussed.

                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • scottalanmillerS
                      scottalanmiller @Dashrender
                      last edited by

                      @Dashrender said in Cost Study: 4 Node Scale vs. 4 Node VMware IPOD:

                      @scottalanmiller said in Cost Study: 4 Node Scale vs. 4 Node VMware IPOD:

                      @Dashrender said in Cost Study: 4 Node Scale vs. 4 Node VMware IPOD:

                      Scott didn't mention the RAID controller in his Dells, what kind of RAID are in your boxes? how about the warranty, what are the details?

                      No RAID with hyperconverged players. Not that there couldn't be, but no one uses one. Since everyone has to have RAIN anyway at a higher layer, having a RAID controller doesn't add any value. So none in the Scale, VSAN, Starwind or IPOD examples. Not just no RAID controller, no RAID at all. HTBase is the same in that regard.

                      for the uninitiated, you just blew my mind a little.

                      @John-Nicholson and I have been talking about the death of RAID for years. RAID pretty much exists as a vestige for very small environments that still see their infrastructure in terms of "a single server" and not as clusters and clouds. Once you get beyond the "each node handles its own storage" point (which only applies to one or possibly two host clusters) RAID has no value. Gluster, CEPH, and anything perceived as "cloud storage" and anything like VSAN, Starwind or hyperconvergence are all RAID-less. We've long been in the post-RAID world, RAID remains almost solely for the smallest SMBs.

                      Net RunnerN 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                      • scottalanmillerS
                        scottalanmiller
                        last edited by

                        We were on the cusp of being post-RAID at the Wall St. shop I was in by 2006. We were evaluating non-RAID clustering but it just wasn't there in performance terms at the time. We were able to use RAID to go faster for our big performance needs, but that was a long time ago. Luster was a major push to change that.

                        dafyreD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • htbaseH
                          htbase @Dashrender
                          last edited by

                          @Dashrender Yep, thats right!

                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • dafyreD
                            dafyre @scottalanmiller
                            last edited by

                            @scottalanmiller said in Cost Study: 4 Node Scale vs. 4 Node VMware IPOD:

                            We were on the cusp of being post-RAID at the Wall St. shop I was in by 2006. We were evaluating non-RAID clustering but it just wasn't there in performance terms at the time. We were able to use RAID to go faster for our big performance needs, but that was a long time ago. Luster was a major push to change that.

                            What are alternatives to Lustre today? Gluster?

                            htbaseH 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • htbaseH
                              htbase @dafyre
                              last edited by

                              @dafyre HTFS from HTBase too! 😄

                              dafyreD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                              • dafyreD
                                dafyre @htbase
                                last edited by

                                @htbase said in Cost Study: 4 Node Scale vs. 4 Node VMware IPOD:

                                @dafyre HTFS from HTBase too! 😄

                                Is the HTFS free or open source?

                                If it's not free, how is it priced -- per host, per TB... etc?

                                scottalanmillerS htbaseH 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • scottalanmillerS
                                  scottalanmiller @dafyre
                                  last edited by

                                  @dafyre said in Cost Study: 4 Node Scale vs. 4 Node VMware IPOD:

                                  @htbase said in Cost Study: 4 Node Scale vs. 4 Node VMware IPOD:

                                  @dafyre HTFS from HTBase too! 😄

                                  Is the HTFS free or open source?

                                  If it's not free, how is it priced -- per host, per TB... etc?

                                  And can it be used independently? What interfaces are available for it?

                                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • htbaseH
                                    htbase @dafyre
                                    last edited by

                                    @dafyre Its not free or open source right now. Its charged on a host/node base

                                    Yep, it can be used independently from our hyperconverged solution

                                    dafyreD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                    • dafyreD
                                      dafyre @htbase
                                      last edited by dafyre

                                      @htbase said in Cost Study: 4 Node Scale vs. 4 Node VMware IPOD:

                                      @dafyre Its not free or open source right now. Its charged on a host/node base

                                      Yep, it can be used independently from our hyperconverged solution

                                      Thanks for the heads up!

                                      Can you share list pricing per host?

                                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                      • PSX_DefectorP
                                        PSX_Defector @scottalanmiller
                                        last edited by

                                        @scottalanmiller said in Cost Study: 4 Node Scale vs. 4 Node VMware IPOD:

                                        A cost difference of $67,594 is pretty significant for any SMB.

                                        Because you picked something I would buy, well, not me because I would run out of space first on it, not an SMB. Dell still sells Compellent storage. An SCv2020, same amount of disks, with support, is $30K on Fibre Channel. Why not quote PURE SANs while we are at it, stacked to the gills with the fastest SSDs we can find?

                                        Cherry picking storage is always gonna make hyperconvergence look good. You need to review your workload to determine if that's gonna be the right path. Most SMBs workload only needs cheap and deep storage because they are all digital packrats and very little compute. Most SMBs workload would be better ran in cloud services. So really, it's not about cost study for local servers, it's about if it's better to host outside and get a giant NAS for those local files which people can't seem to get rid of.

                                        scottalanmillerS 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • scottalanmillerS
                                          scottalanmiller @PSX_Defector
                                          last edited by

                                          @PSX_Defector said in Cost Study: 4 Node Scale vs. 4 Node VMware IPOD:

                                          @scottalanmiller said in Cost Study: 4 Node Scale vs. 4 Node VMware IPOD:

                                          A cost difference of $67,594 is pretty significant for any SMB.

                                          Because you picked something I would buy, well, not me because I would run out of space first on it, not an SMB. Dell still sells Compellent storage. An SCv2020, same amount of disks, with support, is $30K on Fibre Channel. Why not quote PURE SANs while we are at it, stacked to the gills with the fastest SSDs we can find?

                                          Cherry picking storage is always gonna make hyperconvergence look good. You need to review your workload to determine if that's gonna be the right path. Most SMBs workload only needs cheap and deep storage because they are all digital packrats and very little compute. Most SMBs workload would be better ran in cloud services. So really, it's not about cost study for local servers, it's about if it's better to host outside and get a giant NAS for those local files which people can't seem to get rid of.

                                          Not cherry picked. Literally the closest competitor with their most aligned product. It's a product that is significantly below the standard of the HC solution and the minimum we could possibly consider to be competition. Going to Pure is ridiculous because it is so much more and not comparable. Compellent is "sold" but is lower end than is seriously consideration in apples to apples and as it is now at risk for support, it's not considered a viable competitor anyway. Cherry picking is the opposite of what was done here, this is as not cherry picked as we can get.

                                          Find 3PAR or HDS pricing for hybrid storage if you want other options in a reasonable range. Anything "less" is cherry picking to lower the price while changing the goals.

                                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                          • scottalanmillerS
                                            scottalanmiller @PSX_Defector
                                            last edited by

                                            @PSX_Defector said in Cost Study: 4 Node Scale vs. 4 Node VMware IPOD:

                                            Because you picked something I would buy...

                                            I thought you worked for a serious hosting company. That's entry level SMB storage. VNXe is super low end highly reliable storage.

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