Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions
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So.... to what Scott just said, you should get a third USB stick and get a copy of XenServer.
Another advantage of using XenServer, after you install XenServer on the hardware, you can work from anywhere that has network connectivity to the system. So if this box is going to live in a corner in the basement, you can install it, and leave it there... then go to your real workspace and remote connect to it and work as if you were sitting at the console.
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@geertcourmacher said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
Thanks for all the help so far!
In the Raid controller Bios I realized two things:
- The Firmware is not the latest, but very close to it; 18937 (Feb 2012) vs the latest release 18948 (May 2012). Is an update recommended or just an unecessary risk? No Data or arrays are created yet.
When installing something new, always start with the latest and greatest drivers/firmware possible. If during deployment you find that something doesn't work, you downgrade, but there is no reason to ever start a project at less than the most recent except as stated above.
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@Dashrender said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@geertcourmacher said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
Thanks for all the help so far!
In the Raid controller Bios I realized two things:
- The Firmware is not the latest, but very close to it; 18937 (Feb 2012) vs the latest release 18948 (May 2012). Is an update recommended or just an unecessary risk? No Data or arrays are created yet.
When installing something new, always start with the latest and greatest drivers/firmware possible. If during deployment you find that something doesn't work, you downgrade, but there is no reason to ever start a project at less than the most recent except as stated above.
This ^^^^
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OH, I should toss this on the fire since we're talking about larger partitions. XS has a limitation in that it can only present 2 TB worth of storage in a single chunck to a VM at a time.
I don't have a better way to say that at the moment... but I do need to add - each VM can have as many 2 TB chucks offered to it as you want to provide.
So in a 10 TB system, you could create a 100 GB VHD for Windows to be installed into. Then create four 2 TB VHDs and a 1.9 TB. Once inside windows, you can span all of these (windows will see them as drives) together into one large drive for the system to use.
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Ok, so firmware upgrade first.
Then array creation. Any hints on the issues above with the drives being recognized as too slow? (Possible chance step 1 will rectify this, though).
Regarding the many settings in the controller config; no changes from default?
And stripe size? If the suggestion was 4, 16 would be the closest to choose. Yet, that would be the lowest of the options and I have larger files.Third, OS choice. Still uncertain and only vague understanding of what VM does. Would XS run on top of CentOS or concurrently?
If I just wanted the array up and running, could I actually change the OS later on? (I guess this would assume OS installation not on the array). If the controller is doing all the work, this shouldn't be impossible, no? But I guess in practice, Windows will not use the same filesystem. If it worked the other way around (CentOS, XS being able to read NTFS), though, then I could familiarize myself with all of your suggestions on another PC, and then make the switch on the array. -
@geertcourmacher said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
Third, OS choice. Still uncertain and only vague understanding of what VM does. Would XS run on top of CentOS or concurrently?
Neither. Your hypervisor runs on the bare metal. Then you install CentOS on top of that. OS always on top, never underneath.
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@geertcourmacher said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
Third, OS choice. Still uncertain and only vague understanding of what VM does. Would XS run on top of CentOS or concurrently?
The use of hypervisor (XS in this case) does not influence the chose of OS. (Well, it might but not to you. If you were a huge company running huge workloads and really needed to research tiny performance differences... maybe.)
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@geertcourmacher said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
If I just wanted the array up and running, could I actually change the OS later on?
Sure, but that's like changing the OS anywhere... you start over.
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@geertcourmacher said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
If the controller is doing all the work, this shouldn't be impossible, no?
The controller does some work, but not all that much. It takes several disks and binds them together to present them as a single disk. That's all.
So changing OSes when you use hardware RAID makes it as "simple as" changing the OS on your desktop.
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OK well, for now I'll give Scott that XS is a hypervisor not an OS.
And definitely agree that it's what goes directly on the hardware. After it's installed you are able to carve up the hardware resource to be shared by a large number of virtual servers/machines where you can install Windows or Linux or BSD, etc. To each of those VMs they aren't aware or barely aware that another VM is running beside them on the hardware. -
Thanks; I'm beginning to understand.
On my desktop change of OS would depend on where data is stored. With JBODs and a seperate OS disk or ssd I could run linux on a stick or install it as a second OS and access the data.
If the desktop OS is on the same disk as the data, it would be hard to get rid of the old one. But otherwise changing OS would be quite easy, or am I wrong? -
That sounds reasonable. But even if the OS is on the disk with the data, as long as you aren't formating the disk, you could still install a new OS on that disk, normally it won't overwrite data on the drive.
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Firmware update was succesful. The drives are still not recognized at 3GB/s, but this seems to change arbitrarily. At some point I had one or two of the 5 WD drives recognized as 3GB/s, now I'm down to 0 again (all show 1.5GB/s); the only stable one is the HGST. A few other drives I tested got 3GB/s too.
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I wonder if you have a bad cable between the drives and the RAID card?
Also, are there any firmware updates for the drives?
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Although I rebooted thrice after the firmware update, the issue seems to be gone now. I didn't change anything though. I coulnd't find any firmware uppdate for the drives, except the lcc update, but none of the drives were affected by this.
I've built the array now with a stripe size of 512KB, hopefully not too much (I consulted the web; let's see whether that actually holds) It was the second highest, 1024 would have also been available (down to 16).
Just ran a quick test and got transfer rates of about 11MB/s write and 115MB/s read. The write penality is probably within range?!
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@scottalanmiller said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@wirestyle22 said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@Dashrender said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@scottalanmiller said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@geertcourmacher said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
I'll at least start an installation with one of your recommendations, either on the server now are as a second boot option on my work pc. CentOS would also be good as a server system, or was this a general recommendation to be paired with XenServer?
I'd like to start small with only what's necessary, if that makes sense. If i find it easier than anticipated, I can still go further.Skipping XenServer will often make for "more work". I realize that this is for home and not business so the strong guidance of "always virtualize" still has to be tempered with "do what you are happy with doing." But some of the reasons that we say that everything should be virtual is that it makes things easier, not harder. Technically it is "doing more", but only technically.
Exactly. For example, when you reboot an OS that's installed on physical hardware, you have to reboot the hardware as well as the software. My IBM server takes over 7 mins to initialize the hardware. But, if I'm virtualized that time is zero or near zero. When I reboot a VM, I see a BIOS screen presented by the hypervisor and pop - my OS is booting. Also through the hypervisor I can mount ISOs for booting and troubleshooting. The hypervisor allows me to create virtual hardware to the VM so I don't have to worry about creating real DVDs or USB flash drives with installers on them. Another awesome advantage, backups. The VMs are just giant files to the hypervisor. If a VM is shutdown, you can just copy it anywhere you want, just like any other file.
Yes all of this. @geertcourmacher This also creates a single point of failure for multiple computers instead of one in the case of hardware failure. Most things aren't absolute. There are always advantages and disadvantages which is why you have multiple options. Sometimes the disadvantage is literally only increased cost but it's superior in every other way.
@wirestyle22 said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@Dashrender said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@scottalanmiller said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@geertcourmacher said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
I'll at least start an installation with one of your recommendations, either on the server now are as a second boot option on my work pc. CentOS would also be good as a server system, or was this a general recommendation to be paired with XenServer?
I'd like to start small with only what's necessary, if that makes sense. If i find it easier than anticipated, I can still go further.Skipping XenServer will often make for "more work". I realize that this is for home and not business so the strong guidance of "always virtualize" still has to be tempered with "do what you are happy with doing." But some of the reasons that we say that everything should be virtual is that it makes things easier, not harder. Technically it is "doing more", but only technically.
Exactly. For example, when you reboot an OS that's installed on physical hardware, you have to reboot the hardware as well as the software. My IBM server takes over 7 mins to initialize the hardware. But, if I'm virtualized that time is zero or near zero. When I reboot a VM, I see a BIOS screen presented by the hypervisor and pop - my OS is booting. Also through the hypervisor I can mount ISOs for booting and troubleshooting. The hypervisor allows me to create virtual hardware to the VM so I don't have to worry about creating real DVDs or USB flash drives with installers on them. Another awesome advantage, backups. The VMs are just giant files to the hypervisor. If a VM is shutdown, you can just copy it anywhere you want, just like any other file.
Yes all of this. @geertcourmacher This also creates a single point of failure for multiple computers instead of one in the case of hardware failure. Most things aren't absolute. There are always advantages and disadvantages which is why you have multiple options. Sometimes the disadvantage is literally only increased cost but it's superior in every other way.
Virtual really has no downsides, though. The "single point of risk" is misleading because that's an emotional way of looking at it and empirical. One of the most important reasons that we use virtualization always is because it makes those workloads safer, it doesn't increase risk. Sure, it "adds a point of risk" but it vastly offsets this by making tons of other points safer. This is why terms like "Single Point of Failure" are dangerous - they make people panic over something that might be safe and make them see having two of something as safe even when its dangerous. It's an emotional way to view risks and very dangerous.
Virtualization is not a pro/con situation. It's just pro.. pro... pros. It's always free, so there is no cost. It improves a lot of things with only nominal negatives. There are very important reasons why you never talk about other options... because no one should be led to believe that there is a use case where not having virtualization is acceptable. That's not to say that at home you can't do whatever you want, of course you can. But even at home you should recognize that doing something without virtualization is risky just for the sake of.. whatever it is making you want to do that.
I absolutely agree. I just wanted to present that caveat. It is absolutely outweighed by all of the benefits.
Q: Have any of you ever attempted to cluster two VM host machines together? Is that a thing?
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@wirestyle22 said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@scottalanmiller said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@wirestyle22 said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@Dashrender said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@scottalanmiller said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@geertcourmacher said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
I'll at least start an installation with one of your recommendations, either on the server now are as a second boot option on my work pc. CentOS would also be good as a server system, or was this a general recommendation to be paired with XenServer?
I'd like to start small with only what's necessary, if that makes sense. If i find it easier than anticipated, I can still go further.Skipping XenServer will often make for "more work". I realize that this is for home and not business so the strong guidance of "always virtualize" still has to be tempered with "do what you are happy with doing." But some of the reasons that we say that everything should be virtual is that it makes things easier, not harder. Technically it is "doing more", but only technically.
Exactly. For example, when you reboot an OS that's installed on physical hardware, you have to reboot the hardware as well as the software. My IBM server takes over 7 mins to initialize the hardware. But, if I'm virtualized that time is zero or near zero. When I reboot a VM, I see a BIOS screen presented by the hypervisor and pop - my OS is booting. Also through the hypervisor I can mount ISOs for booting and troubleshooting. The hypervisor allows me to create virtual hardware to the VM so I don't have to worry about creating real DVDs or USB flash drives with installers on them. Another awesome advantage, backups. The VMs are just giant files to the hypervisor. If a VM is shutdown, you can just copy it anywhere you want, just like any other file.
Yes all of this. @geertcourmacher This also creates a single point of failure for multiple computers instead of one in the case of hardware failure. Most things aren't absolute. There are always advantages and disadvantages which is why you have multiple options. Sometimes the disadvantage is literally only increased cost but it's superior in every other way.
@wirestyle22 said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@Dashrender said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@scottalanmiller said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@geertcourmacher said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
I'll at least start an installation with one of your recommendations, either on the server now are as a second boot option on my work pc. CentOS would also be good as a server system, or was this a general recommendation to be paired with XenServer?
I'd like to start small with only what's necessary, if that makes sense. If i find it easier than anticipated, I can still go further.Skipping XenServer will often make for "more work". I realize that this is for home and not business so the strong guidance of "always virtualize" still has to be tempered with "do what you are happy with doing." But some of the reasons that we say that everything should be virtual is that it makes things easier, not harder. Technically it is "doing more", but only technically.
Exactly. For example, when you reboot an OS that's installed on physical hardware, you have to reboot the hardware as well as the software. My IBM server takes over 7 mins to initialize the hardware. But, if I'm virtualized that time is zero or near zero. When I reboot a VM, I see a BIOS screen presented by the hypervisor and pop - my OS is booting. Also through the hypervisor I can mount ISOs for booting and troubleshooting. The hypervisor allows me to create virtual hardware to the VM so I don't have to worry about creating real DVDs or USB flash drives with installers on them. Another awesome advantage, backups. The VMs are just giant files to the hypervisor. If a VM is shutdown, you can just copy it anywhere you want, just like any other file.
Yes all of this. @geertcourmacher This also creates a single point of failure for multiple computers instead of one in the case of hardware failure. Most things aren't absolute. There are always advantages and disadvantages which is why you have multiple options. Sometimes the disadvantage is literally only increased cost but it's superior in every other way.
Virtual really has no downsides, though. The "single point of risk" is misleading because that's an emotional way of looking at it and empirical. One of the most important reasons that we use virtualization always is because it makes those workloads safer, it doesn't increase risk. Sure, it "adds a point of risk" but it vastly offsets this by making tons of other points safer. This is why terms like "Single Point of Failure" are dangerous - they make people panic over something that might be safe and make them see having two of something as safe even when its dangerous. It's an emotional way to view risks and very dangerous.
Virtualization is not a pro/con situation. It's just pro.. pro... pros. It's always free, so there is no cost. It improves a lot of things with only nominal negatives. There are very important reasons why you never talk about other options... because no one should be led to believe that there is a use case where not having virtualization is acceptable. That's not to say that at home you can't do whatever you want, of course you can. But even at home you should recognize that doing something without virtualization is risky just for the sake of.. whatever it is making you want to do that.
I absolutely agree. I just wanted to present that caveat. It is absolutely outweighed by all of the benefits.
Q: Have any of you ever attempted to cluster two VM host machines together? Is that a thing?
What do you mean by cluster?
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@coliver said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@wirestyle22 said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@scottalanmiller said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@wirestyle22 said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@Dashrender said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@scottalanmiller said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@geertcourmacher said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
I'll at least start an installation with one of your recommendations, either on the server now are as a second boot option on my work pc. CentOS would also be good as a server system, or was this a general recommendation to be paired with XenServer?
I'd like to start small with only what's necessary, if that makes sense. If i find it easier than anticipated, I can still go further.Skipping XenServer will often make for "more work". I realize that this is for home and not business so the strong guidance of "always virtualize" still has to be tempered with "do what you are happy with doing." But some of the reasons that we say that everything should be virtual is that it makes things easier, not harder. Technically it is "doing more", but only technically.
Exactly. For example, when you reboot an OS that's installed on physical hardware, you have to reboot the hardware as well as the software. My IBM server takes over 7 mins to initialize the hardware. But, if I'm virtualized that time is zero or near zero. When I reboot a VM, I see a BIOS screen presented by the hypervisor and pop - my OS is booting. Also through the hypervisor I can mount ISOs for booting and troubleshooting. The hypervisor allows me to create virtual hardware to the VM so I don't have to worry about creating real DVDs or USB flash drives with installers on them. Another awesome advantage, backups. The VMs are just giant files to the hypervisor. If a VM is shutdown, you can just copy it anywhere you want, just like any other file.
Yes all of this. @geertcourmacher This also creates a single point of failure for multiple computers instead of one in the case of hardware failure. Most things aren't absolute. There are always advantages and disadvantages which is why you have multiple options. Sometimes the disadvantage is literally only increased cost but it's superior in every other way.
@wirestyle22 said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@Dashrender said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@scottalanmiller said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@geertcourmacher said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
I'll at least start an installation with one of your recommendations, either on the server now are as a second boot option on my work pc. CentOS would also be good as a server system, or was this a general recommendation to be paired with XenServer?
I'd like to start small with only what's necessary, if that makes sense. If i find it easier than anticipated, I can still go further.Skipping XenServer will often make for "more work". I realize that this is for home and not business so the strong guidance of "always virtualize" still has to be tempered with "do what you are happy with doing." But some of the reasons that we say that everything should be virtual is that it makes things easier, not harder. Technically it is "doing more", but only technically.
Exactly. For example, when you reboot an OS that's installed on physical hardware, you have to reboot the hardware as well as the software. My IBM server takes over 7 mins to initialize the hardware. But, if I'm virtualized that time is zero or near zero. When I reboot a VM, I see a BIOS screen presented by the hypervisor and pop - my OS is booting. Also through the hypervisor I can mount ISOs for booting and troubleshooting. The hypervisor allows me to create virtual hardware to the VM so I don't have to worry about creating real DVDs or USB flash drives with installers on them. Another awesome advantage, backups. The VMs are just giant files to the hypervisor. If a VM is shutdown, you can just copy it anywhere you want, just like any other file.
Yes all of this. @geertcourmacher This also creates a single point of failure for multiple computers instead of one in the case of hardware failure. Most things aren't absolute. There are always advantages and disadvantages which is why you have multiple options. Sometimes the disadvantage is literally only increased cost but it's superior in every other way.
Virtual really has no downsides, though. The "single point of risk" is misleading because that's an emotional way of looking at it and empirical. One of the most important reasons that we use virtualization always is because it makes those workloads safer, it doesn't increase risk. Sure, it "adds a point of risk" but it vastly offsets this by making tons of other points safer. This is why terms like "Single Point of Failure" are dangerous - they make people panic over something that might be safe and make them see having two of something as safe even when its dangerous. It's an emotional way to view risks and very dangerous.
Virtualization is not a pro/con situation. It's just pro.. pro... pros. It's always free, so there is no cost. It improves a lot of things with only nominal negatives. There are very important reasons why you never talk about other options... because no one should be led to believe that there is a use case where not having virtualization is acceptable. That's not to say that at home you can't do whatever you want, of course you can. But even at home you should recognize that doing something without virtualization is risky just for the sake of.. whatever it is making you want to do that.
I absolutely agree. I just wanted to present that caveat. It is absolutely outweighed by all of the benefits.
Q: Have any of you ever attempted to cluster two VM host machines together? Is that a thing?
What do you mean by cluster?
Server clustering as in something akin to data centers where multiple servers run as a single server. That may be old terminology
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@wirestyle22 said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@coliver said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@wirestyle22 said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@scottalanmiller said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@wirestyle22 said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@Dashrender said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@scottalanmiller said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@geertcourmacher said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
I'll at least start an installation with one of your recommendations, either on the server now are as a second boot option on my work pc. CentOS would also be good as a server system, or was this a general recommendation to be paired with XenServer?
I'd like to start small with only what's necessary, if that makes sense. If i find it easier than anticipated, I can still go further.Skipping XenServer will often make for "more work". I realize that this is for home and not business so the strong guidance of "always virtualize" still has to be tempered with "do what you are happy with doing." But some of the reasons that we say that everything should be virtual is that it makes things easier, not harder. Technically it is "doing more", but only technically.
Exactly. For example, when you reboot an OS that's installed on physical hardware, you have to reboot the hardware as well as the software. My IBM server takes over 7 mins to initialize the hardware. But, if I'm virtualized that time is zero or near zero. When I reboot a VM, I see a BIOS screen presented by the hypervisor and pop - my OS is booting. Also through the hypervisor I can mount ISOs for booting and troubleshooting. The hypervisor allows me to create virtual hardware to the VM so I don't have to worry about creating real DVDs or USB flash drives with installers on them. Another awesome advantage, backups. The VMs are just giant files to the hypervisor. If a VM is shutdown, you can just copy it anywhere you want, just like any other file.
Yes all of this. @geertcourmacher This also creates a single point of failure for multiple computers instead of one in the case of hardware failure. Most things aren't absolute. There are always advantages and disadvantages which is why you have multiple options. Sometimes the disadvantage is literally only increased cost but it's superior in every other way.
@wirestyle22 said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@Dashrender said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@scottalanmiller said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
@geertcourmacher said in Raid 6 Amateur File Server Setup Questions:
I'll at least start an installation with one of your recommendations, either on the server now are as a second boot option on my work pc. CentOS would also be good as a server system, or was this a general recommendation to be paired with XenServer?
I'd like to start small with only what's necessary, if that makes sense. If i find it easier than anticipated, I can still go further.Skipping XenServer will often make for "more work". I realize that this is for home and not business so the strong guidance of "always virtualize" still has to be tempered with "do what you are happy with doing." But some of the reasons that we say that everything should be virtual is that it makes things easier, not harder. Technically it is "doing more", but only technically.
Exactly. For example, when you reboot an OS that's installed on physical hardware, you have to reboot the hardware as well as the software. My IBM server takes over 7 mins to initialize the hardware. But, if I'm virtualized that time is zero or near zero. When I reboot a VM, I see a BIOS screen presented by the hypervisor and pop - my OS is booting. Also through the hypervisor I can mount ISOs for booting and troubleshooting. The hypervisor allows me to create virtual hardware to the VM so I don't have to worry about creating real DVDs or USB flash drives with installers on them. Another awesome advantage, backups. The VMs are just giant files to the hypervisor. If a VM is shutdown, you can just copy it anywhere you want, just like any other file.
Yes all of this. @geertcourmacher This also creates a single point of failure for multiple computers instead of one in the case of hardware failure. Most things aren't absolute. There are always advantages and disadvantages which is why you have multiple options. Sometimes the disadvantage is literally only increased cost but it's superior in every other way.
Virtual really has no downsides, though. The "single point of risk" is misleading because that's an emotional way of looking at it and empirical. One of the most important reasons that we use virtualization always is because it makes those workloads safer, it doesn't increase risk. Sure, it "adds a point of risk" but it vastly offsets this by making tons of other points safer. This is why terms like "Single Point of Failure" are dangerous - they make people panic over something that might be safe and make them see having two of something as safe even when its dangerous. It's an emotional way to view risks and very dangerous.
Virtualization is not a pro/con situation. It's just pro.. pro... pros. It's always free, so there is no cost. It improves a lot of things with only nominal negatives. There are very important reasons why you never talk about other options... because no one should be led to believe that there is a use case where not having virtualization is acceptable. That's not to say that at home you can't do whatever you want, of course you can. But even at home you should recognize that doing something without virtualization is risky just for the sake of.. whatever it is making you want to do that.
I absolutely agree. I just wanted to present that caveat. It is absolutely outweighed by all of the benefits.
Q: Have any of you ever attempted to cluster two VM host machines together? Is that a thing?
What do you mean by cluster?
Server clustering as in something akin to data centers where multiple servers run as a single server. That may be old terminology
Nope, not really old technology. We do clustering here, to an extent, we have a software that monitors our systems and automatically live migrates VM loads between hosts. So if one host becomes overloaded it migrates some VMs off of it to another one to free up resources.
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Really the hyperconverged systems, like Scale, are an example of clustering. You take the entire infrastructure as a whole and don't worry too much about the individual nodes. If you need more compute or storage you purchase another node and put it into the RAIN infrastructure and you don't really think about it again.
