What BASH and SSH Mean for Windows Systems Administration
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@Carnival-Boy said:
I suppose that would be a benefit of insisting on certs when recruiting. It wouldn't make them good at their jobs, but it would at lease ensure that they have heard of the basics.
Very much so. That's something that I've mentioned when speaking to people about cert value to the vendor - they are a strong means of educating and indoctrinating their user base. They don't force people to use the tools, but they ensure that people are aware of the vendor's intended means of working.
There are tons of Windows things I would never have found on my own but know because they were in the certification process. Some are useful, some I've never used. But at least I am aware of them.
Certification helps with standardizing the field.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
@scottalanmiller said:
I've worked with large Wall St. investment firms that were very Windows-focused shops, with $200K+ Windows Admins across the board and none used PS and when the UNIX teams asked about the use of tools like RSAT the team actually didn't even know that Microsoft had remote management toolsets like that!
Wait, what? There are Windows Admins earning over $200k who don't know what RSAT is? Really?
I kid you not. They were deploying so many things haphazardly breaking RSAT compatibility that they have never even researched it. Literally my first day at this massive firm and I asked about that decision making and a room full of Windows Admins, including their manager, looked at my like deer in the headlights and asked what RSAT was.
Seriously.... no clue how this happens yet, it really does.
This makes me think those people were all there before Windows was brought in house, and that they have never hired anyone from the outside to be on the team who could have brought that knowledge with them and share it amongst the group.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
I suppose that would be a benefit of insisting on certs when recruiting. It wouldn't make them good at their jobs, but it would at lease ensure that they have heard of the basics.
Very much so. That's something that I've mentioned when speaking to people about cert value to the vendor - they are a strong means of educating and indoctrinating their user base. They don't force people to use the tools, but they ensure that people are aware of the vendor's intended means of working.
There are tons of Windows things I would never have found on my own but know because they were in the certification process. Some are useful, some I've never used. But at least I am aware of them.
Certification helps with standardizing the field.
You're the lucky one with a near eidetic memory. I'm sure I've been exposed to way more than I'll ever remember from my cert testing days.
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@Dashrender said:
This makes me think those people were all there before Windows was brought in house, and that they have never hired anyone from the outside to be on the team who could have brought that knowledge with them and share it amongst the group.
No, none of them. The place had been Windows since the 90s at least and none of them had over five years. They were all high cost Windows people before joining there.
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@Dashrender said:
This makes me think those people were all there before Windows was brought in house, and that they have never hired anyone from the outside to be on the team who could have brought that knowledge with them and share it amongst the group.
At least one had been brought in only a week or two before I started and another just one month before.
That highlights how much the culture is focused on the GUI and legacy management... fresh blood actually rarely brings in the kind of cross-cultural skill enhancement that you would expect. You could hire twenty Windows people and might actually not get a single one that has used RSAT.
Think of it this way.... if you went to thirty SMB shops on SW, what are the chances that a single one of them has seen the info that SANs aren't needed like they think, that they shouldn't farm their own jobs out to sales people and that RAID 5 is a bad idea? You might get lucky, but there is every chance that not a single one would have seen that despite it being discussed ad nauseum, being widely published and continuously discussed for nearly a decade.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
This makes me think those people were all there before Windows was brought in house, and that they have never hired anyone from the outside to be on the team who could have brought that knowledge with them and share it amongst the group.
No, none of them. The place had been Windows since the 90s at least and none of them had over five years. They were all high cost Windows people before joining there.
Wow Just wow - other than the fact that I don't think I'd want to work in such a clearly knowledge deficient environment, man, how do I get a job at $200K there? lol
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@Dashrender said:
Wow Just wow - other than the fact that I don't think I'd want to work in such a clearly knowledge deficient environment, man, how do I get a job at $200K there? lol
Believe it or not, they struggle to hire!
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@scottalanmiller said:
Think of it this way.... if you went to thirty SMB shops on SW, what are the chances that a single one of them has seen the info that SANs aren't needed like they think, that they shouldn't farm their own jobs out to sales people and that RAID 5 is a bad idea? You might get lucky, but there is every chance that not a single one would have seen that despite it being discussed ad nauseum, being widely published and continuously discussed for nearly a decade.
There's a severe difference, or at least there should be, between SMB IT personal and guys getting $200K/yr. Sadly SMB's rarely pay for training, and well sadly the personal don't care about their own professional growth within IT so they don't and update their skills.
But larger companies should be mandating this and providing it. -
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
Wow Just wow - other than the fact that I don't think I'd want to work in such a clearly knowledge deficient environment, man, how do I get a job at $200K there? lol
Believe it or not, they struggle to hire!
How can that be? Do the places have such horrible reputations that no one wants to work there? Are they in Detroit, aka no one wants to live there?
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Think of it this way.... if you went to thirty SMB shops on SW, what are the chances that a single one of them has seen the info that SANs aren't needed like they think, that they shouldn't farm their own jobs out to sales people and that RAID 5 is a bad idea? You might get lucky, but there is every chance that not a single one would have seen that despite it being discussed ad nauseum, being widely published and continuously discussed for nearly a decade.
There's a severe difference, or at least there should be, between SMB IT personal and guys getting $200K/yr. Sadly SMB's rarely pay for training, and well sadly the personal don't care about their own professional growth within IT so they don't and update their skills.
But larger companies should be mandating this and providing it.They hope to hire people with the experience already, in many cases. And if you don't know what training you don't have, how do you know what to send people to?
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
Wow Just wow - other than the fact that I don't think I'd want to work in such a clearly knowledge deficient environment, man, how do I get a job at $200K there? lol
Believe it or not, they struggle to hire!
How can that be? Do the places have such horrible reputations that no one wants to work there? Are they in Detroit, aka no one wants to live there?
Yup, a lot like that.
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Plus bad location. You have no idea how little IT people are willing to relocate, even for big money. That alone almost totally cripples the industry.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Think of it this way.... if you went to thirty SMB shops on SW, what are the chances that a single one of them has seen the info that SANs aren't needed like they think, that they shouldn't farm their own jobs out to sales people and that RAID 5 is a bad idea? You might get lucky, but there is every chance that not a single one would have seen that despite it being discussed ad nauseum, being widely published and continuously discussed for nearly a decade.
There's a severe difference, or at least there should be, between SMB IT personal and guys getting $200K/yr. Sadly SMB's rarely pay for training, and well sadly the personal don't care about their own professional growth within IT so they don't and update their skills.
But larger companies should be mandating this and providing it.They hope to hire people with the experience already, in many cases. And if you don't know what training you don't have, how do you know what to send people to?
I suppose that's a good question - well, perhaps re-certing or first certing has just shown some value at these companies.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Plus bad location. You have no idea how little IT people are willing to relocate, even for big money. That alone almost totally cripples the industry.
Is there any industry where it's workers as a rule want to relocate, even for big money?
I would have to agree that it would be like moving a mountain for me to move short of getting a divorce. While I have little family left here (only one brother I rarely see), nearly her entire family is here. Only her sister has left, and that was two years ago, got divorce just after getting her nursing degree (she's 40, got the degree at 35) and left the city.
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@Dashrender said:
Is there any industry where it's workers as a rule want to relocate, even for big money?
Most, I think.
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We live in the era of relocation. Inability to relocate is a total yoke for nearly any profession. Doesn't matter what you do: teach high school, electrical engineer, IT, muralist, concert pianist, actor, pilot.... if you are unable to relocate your career pretty much stops. It's not just that opportunities disappear, but the few remaining employers know that they own you and that you have no leverage so your "market value" disappears.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
Is there any industry where it's workers as a rule want to relocate, even for big money?
Most, I think.
really? You think most people in this world are willing to relocate, but somehow IT personal aren't? Why would that be?
I completely disagree with you. I feel, it's only a feeling, that most people wouldn't move. For the same reason that most people won't leave crappy jobs - laziness and afraid of the unknown. When relocating, you toss in the loss of easy access to friends and family - these are huge motivations to not move.
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@scottalanmiller said:
We live in the era of relocation. Inability to relocate is a total yoke for nearly any profession. Doesn't matter what you do: teach high school, electrical engineer, IT, muralist, concert pianist, actor, pilot.... if you are unable to relocate your career pretty much stops. It's not just that opportunities disappear, but the few remaining employers know that they own you and that you have no leverage so your "market value" disappears.
When did this era start? I guess it started when cars became affordable to the every-man. So this isn't something new. Outside of the military I know very few people who have moved into or out of my city. Not saying it doesn't happen, I just don't feel like it's a common, or even considered normal thing.
Does that leave employers in the driver's seat? Sure.
Oh wait - maybe this is one of those, the just because the normal person doesn't do it, doesn't make it wrong type situations you always have on hand. Now that I'll give you. But humans by nature aren't very nomadic, that was neanderthal.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
We live in the era of relocation. Inability to relocate is a total yoke for nearly any profession. Doesn't matter what you do: teach high school, electrical engineer, IT, muralist, concert pianist, actor, pilot.... if you are unable to relocate your career pretty much stops. It's not just that opportunities disappear, but the few remaining employers know that they own you and that you have no leverage so your "market value" disappears.
When did this era start? I guess it started when cars became affordable to the every-man. So this isn't something new. Outside of the military I know very few people who have moved into or out of my city. Not saying it doesn't happen, I just don't feel like it's a common, or even considered normal thing.
Does that leave employers in the driver's seat? Sure.
Oh wait - maybe this is one of those, the just because the normal person doesn't do it, doesn't make it wrong type situations you always have on hand. Now that I'll give you. But humans by nature aren't very nomadic, that was neanderthal.
Human's prior to the Agricultural revolution, and some tribes even after that, were extremely nomadic.
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@Dashrender said:
really? You think most people in this world are willing to relocate, but somehow IT personal aren't? Why would that be?
You asked about careers, I thought. Most people just worked low end jobs wherever they are. Whatever is available. Unskilled work, not in a career.
