Common Core haters
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@scottalanmiller said:
AP classes are not the hardest classes. I didn't do any AP in school because my university already told me it would not accept them and that they were pointless so not to bother. Back home they do a lot of college work at colleges instead of AP classes, it's the next step past AP. But it still can't take you over a 4.0.
If you get a 4.5 on a 5.0 scale, it just means that you actually got a 3.7 or something like that on a real 4.0 scale.
AP classes don't even count unless you pass the exam (with a 3 out of 5 at least). If NY colleges accept everyone who applies but don't accept AP exam scores, I'd say they are doing things quite differently than this end of the world. AP classes are tougher, more advanced, and count heavily toward getting into good colleges.
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@coliver said:
One of my best decisions, kind of I still went to college, was doing college courses at the local SUNY school prior to graduating high school. The high school subsidized the credits and I was able to graduate from college a year early.
I would have but again... my university told me it would not count.
My whole senior year was just study hall, there were no classes for me to take.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
One of my best decisions, kind of I still went to college, was doing college courses at the local SUNY school prior to graduating high school. The high school subsidized the credits and I was able to graduate from college a year early.
I would have but again... my university told me it would not count.
My whole senior year was just study hall, there were no classes for me to take.
That's what mine would have been. If it wasn't for the ridiculous gym requirement I would have been able to graduate my junior year.
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@RojoLoco said:
@scottalanmiller said:
AP classes are not the hardest classes. I didn't do any AP in school because my university already told me it would not accept them and that they were pointless so not to bother. Back home they do a lot of college work at colleges instead of AP classes, it's the next step past AP. But it still can't take you over a 4.0.
If you get a 4.5 on a 5.0 scale, it just means that you actually got a 3.7 or something like that on a real 4.0 scale.
AP classes don't even count unless you pass the exam (with a 3 out of 5 at least). If NY colleges accept everyone who applies but don't accept AP exam scores, I'd say they are doing things quite differently than this end of the world. AP classes are tougher, more advanced, and count heavily toward getting into good colleges.
I didn't go to a NY school, I went to a very high end private school out of state.
Also remember, northerners look at southern universities like northern high school. AP is the same everywhere. So what is seen as a hard class in the south would be seen as normal in the north. I know nothing about GA schools, but TX universities are completely a joke up north. You literally do more work in high school without AP classes. So a class that gets you out of a college class down south would not necessarily get you out of one up north.
That said, AP classes do count for entry level classes at nearly all schools in the north. But remember SUNY coursework itself, SUNY is a New Ivy, would not be accepted at my college. Not even at reduced credit, not even with a 4.0.
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@wirestyle22 said:
We also have people in administration double dipping. They retire from one school and get a similar job working at another school collecting a salary and their pension from their last job. This is preventing the younger generation from taking that job and completely halts our professional progress.
Hopefully that means those younger people are going out and getting better different jobs and not just wallowing in the mudd.
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@scottalanmiller Our graduates attended colleges all over the country, all of which accepted AP class credits (yup, even real Ivy league schools).
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@RojoLoco said:
@scottalanmiller Our graduates attended colleges all over the country, all of which accepted AP class credits (yup, even real Ivy league schools).
Yeah... we didn't accept Ivy League credits either
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@wirestyle22 said:
@Jason said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@travisdh1 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@travisdh1 said:
@JaredBusch Just out of curiosity, have you every actually looked at the budgets for your local schools? It was eye opening for me. Something just isn't right if you can't give a good education for 1/3 of what our local schools are funded at.
It's not the budget, it is what is paid to the teaching staff that is the issue.
We pay teachers? Could've fooled me from the budgets I looked at, grr!
Remember, no one is truly mandating the public school to provide education. They are a combination of babysitting and social control.
If you complain about your pay, the option is to find some other work.. You don't want to? well that just shows your stupidity.
You think people that dedicate 5-6 years of their time getting a masters degree, getting paid scraps should just find other work? That is a ton of dedication to try to further the education in our country. A goal I hope everyone in our field would support considering we are in a 100% intellectual field.
Yes, but just look around those boards.. .you can see that many believe that college education is a complete waste of time.
My wife is a teacher, she loves her job - she doesn't complain about her pay, never has. She knew that she would never be in a high salary job.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@RojoLoco said:
@scottalanmiller Our graduates attended colleges all over the country, all of which accepted AP class credits (yup, even real Ivy league schools).
Yeah... we didn't accept Ivy League credits either
who didn't? Post grad programs? I guess my point is null because I'm not from NY, eh?
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@RojoLoco said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@RojoLoco said:
@scottalanmiller Our graduates attended colleges all over the country, all of which accepted AP class credits (yup, even real Ivy league schools).
Yeah... we didn't accept Ivy League credits either
who didn't? Post grad programs? I guess my point is null because I'm not from NY, eh?
GMI... they didn't accept transfer credits from any Ivy League. They didn't consider the coursework rigorous enough. The only school that they accepted credits from is RIT and they took them at half value.
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Which legitimately, Cornell is an IL school and quite the academic embarrassment, not just to the IL but to the country. Globally famous for people just buying degrees there. It's the worlds "buy a degree" school.
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@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
That is a ton of dedication to try to further the education in our country.
the problem is, most people do that and it is "just taking the easy way out." An education degree is a super easy one (as a general thing.) Other fields can get a degree and tack on "education" as an afterthought. Classes for teachers are different than they are for most other fields.
I had several roommates who were teaches years ago. They were struggling with their master's homework. Some of us IT folks looked at it and were confused because it was material that we non-college students already knew because it was common elementary material (for English.) It took a long time to figure out that what they were struggling with at a top north east teaching school in the grad program wasn't "how to teach" elementary English, they were actually struggling with elementary English themselves!! What a top university expected them to learn in grad school, any other program would have expected them to know coming out of high school (or middle school or lower.)
Getting a Master in Education is often a very easy way to go. It doesn't mean that people are not educated or aren't caring, but the average teacher goes to college to party and takes the easy route in life. It's the one job that they've witnessed as a kid, requires no expanding of their horizons, is the easiest college programs to get into, is a party college experience, requires none of the rigour of more academic programs, and lets them avoid the work world for a year longer than most programs. It's the path of least resistance to a lot of people.
So using those factors alone (instead of individual skill, dedication, effort, etc.) as reasons why teachers should make any given wage doesn't make sense.
It's great that your teacher is doing it to teach kids. So were my roommates, they love teaching middle school English and are really passionate about it. But by and large, the average teacher is just looking for a union job with the least effort to get into that they can.
We solve that problem by making the jobs competitive. If we pay the bottom of the barrel we're going to get the bottom of the barrel.
Private schools prove that isn't true!
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@RojoLoco said:
who didn't? Post grad programs?
They didn't have grad programs. Undergrad only. Had to go on elsewhere for grad work. They only had two programs, very focused.
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@scottalanmiller and you're from NY. New Yorkers' attitude of "everyone not from NY is a shit flinging monkey" is nothing new, I've heard that my whole life from literally everyone I've ever met from NY, upstate or otherwise. Really progressive.
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@RojoLoco said:
@scottalanmiller Our graduates attended colleges all over the country, all of which accepted AP class credits (yup, even real Ivy league schools).
Yes, AP are accepted almost everywhere. I'm just saying that have to be the same AP class taught everywhere. But in some regions, like California, they are just like normal classes and in other regions, like Texas, they are brutal because the kids going into them are used to completely different levels of education. And colleges in different areas, for some they barely cover the material and at others they go past graduate work.
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@RojoLoco said:
@scottalanmiller and you're from NY. New Yorkers' attitude of "everyone not from NY is a shit flinging monkey" is nothing new, I've heard that my whole life from literally everyone I've ever met from NY, upstate or otherwise. Really progressive.
Are you telling me that Texas schools used to teach even remotely as much as NY or California schools? We know that most of the south's schools, including colleges, do a fraction of the education that northeastern schools do. It's not an attitude, it's a real academic disparity.
I said nothing disparaging about you or southerners and made no claims about the north other than the Ivy League is a load of crap and not as well respected even in the north as people like to think, that the north has much more difficult academic programs. This has been shown time and again and I've dealt with education in many regions and have seen it first hand.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
That is a ton of dedication to try to further the education in our country.
the problem is, most people do that and it is "just taking the easy way out." An education degree is a super easy one (as a general thing.) Other fields can get a degree and tack on "education" as an afterthought. Classes for teachers are different than they are for most other fields.
I had several roommates who were teaches years ago. They were struggling with their master's homework. Some of us IT folks looked at it and were confused because it was material that we non-college students already knew because it was common elementary material (for English.) It took a long time to figure out that what they were struggling with at a top north east teaching school in the grad program wasn't "how to teach" elementary English, they were actually struggling with elementary English themselves!! What a top university expected them to learn in grad school, any other program would have expected them to know coming out of high school (or middle school or lower.)
Getting a Master in Education is often a very easy way to go. It doesn't mean that people are not educated or aren't caring, but the average teacher goes to college to party and takes the easy route in life. It's the one job that they've witnessed as a kid, requires no expanding of their horizons, is the easiest college programs to get into, is a party college experience, requires none of the rigour of more academic programs, and lets them avoid the work world for a year longer than most programs. It's the path of least resistance to a lot of people.
So using those factors alone (instead of individual skill, dedication, effort, etc.) as reasons why teachers should make any given wage doesn't make sense.
It's great that your teacher is doing it to teach kids. So were my roommates, they love teaching middle school English and are really passionate about it. But by and large, the average teacher is just looking for a union job with the least effort to get into that they can.
We solve that problem by making the jobs competitive. If we pay the bottom of the barrel we're going to get the bottom of the barrel.
It's, unfortunately, a catch 22. We don't have teachers worth even what they make today. Do we pay the existing unqualified teachers more? Will that encourage the field to improve? We'd have to pay a LOT more.
If the jobs are based on results, maybe we can make it work. But what do we do with all of the teachers that we make useless?
You can only base it on results if you can remove those students who won't want to partake so you're not screwing the person subject to those results.
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@RojoLoco said:
@scottalanmiller and you're from NY. New Yorkers' attitude of "everyone not from NY is a shit flinging monkey" is nothing new, I've heard that my whole life from literally everyone I've ever met from NY, upstate or otherwise. Really progressive.
Aren't you doing the same thing trying to say that the AP classes are very hard and our schools in the north must be weird if we don't accept them universally? You are making the same claims that our schools can't be as rigorous as they are (or were.) NY high schools are terrible now, the last ten years have destroyed them. They are a national embarrassment now. SUNY is still awesome, but the high school system is ruined. I would never send my kids to it, it's ridiculous.
SUNY remains probably the best collegiate education in the nation for value. Low cost, high standards, none of the BS.
According to a study I saw yesterday, there is no university remaining in the US that is a selective as several were twenty years ago. The academic world has changed dramatically. They are now shocked that some colleges accept only 5%. But several used to be below that twenty years ago.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
That is a ton of dedication to try to further the education in our country.
the problem is, most people do that and it is "just taking the easy way out." An education degree is a super easy one (as a general thing.) Other fields can get a degree and tack on "education" as an afterthought. Classes for teachers are different than they are for most other fields.
I had several roommates who were teaches years ago. They were struggling with their master's homework. Some of us IT folks looked at it and were confused because it was material that we non-college students already knew because it was common elementary material (for English.) It took a long time to figure out that what they were struggling with at a top north east teaching school in the grad program wasn't "how to teach" elementary English, they were actually struggling with elementary English themselves!! What a top university expected them to learn in grad school, any other program would have expected them to know coming out of high school (or middle school or lower.)
Getting a Master in Education is often a very easy way to go. It doesn't mean that people are not educated or aren't caring, but the average teacher goes to college to party and takes the easy route in life. It's the one job that they've witnessed as a kid, requires no expanding of their horizons, is the easiest college programs to get into, is a party college experience, requires none of the rigour of more academic programs, and lets them avoid the work world for a year longer than most programs. It's the path of least resistance to a lot of people.
So using those factors alone (instead of individual skill, dedication, effort, etc.) as reasons why teachers should make any given wage doesn't make sense.
It's great that your teacher is doing it to teach kids. So were my roommates, they love teaching middle school English and are really passionate about it. But by and large, the average teacher is just looking for a union job with the least effort to get into that they can.
We solve that problem by making the jobs competitive. If we pay the bottom of the barrel we're going to get the bottom of the barrel.
It's, unfortunately, a catch 22. We don't have teachers worth even what they make today. Do we pay the existing unqualified teachers more? Will that encourage the field to improve? We'd have to pay a LOT more.
If the jobs are based on results, maybe we can make it work. But what do we do with all of the teachers that we make useless?
You can only base it on results if you can remove those students who won't want to partake so you're not screwing the person subject to those results.
Yup, that is a huge issue with the system. The students don't get to pick the teacher and the teacher doesn't get to pick the students. I totally understand why results based teaching is a problem. You have to come up with a way to equally evaluate a teacher when every possible thing is variable - there is no means of creating a baseline for comparison. No two teachers have the same kids, at the same age, for the same material.
Over a career you might be able to evaluate the averages of a few teachers who taught closely, but that's long after the value is gone.
