ThanksAJ in Car Accident
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@scottalanmiller said:
@MattSpeller said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Trust me, if your brakes are stopping you, you're not seeing the conditions we worry about and are driving in situations we consider tame.
Please explain to me what is stopping you then.
Answer is traction.
We are literally talking about a situation where your car goes into a spin. Sure, traction stops you, eventually. But that traction might be from your wheel going sideways, or from hitting debris, other cars or the side of the road. IF your brakes have the traction to stop you, then you aren't talking about the kinds of conditions we are discussing. We are taking about slick, icy conditions where your brakes can't safety stop you, which is a HUGE portion of the year in the NE - it's driving conditions we have to live with day in , day out and can't avoid with snow days or whatever.
Bottom line, if you think the brakes CAN stop you safely, then we are simply discussing different weather conditions.
Sweet - now tell me how RWD gives you any advantage.
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@MattSpeller Read his earlier posts
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Not to play devil's advocate, but if you had AWD or 4x4 you wouldn't be spinning in the first place.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@MattSpeller said:
@scottalanmiller said:
You are missing that we are talking about snow here.
No I'm very clear about it and you're making up wishy washy nonsense about how less traction is better than more. That's frankly just incorrect.
Why do you feel that loss of control has no value and traction does?
If you believe that traction is always better, then pull the e-break at highway speeds and see what happens. Does that worry you? Why? All traction is good, right?
Traction is control, traction is how you maintain control. When your drive wheels have the majority of the weight of your car sitting on them it's much easier to maintain traction and thus control.
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@MattSpeller said:
Sweet - now tell me how RWD gives you any advantage.
I explained it pretty thoroughly. The dragging wheels are BEHIND you, so the car slows while wanting to face forward... like dragging an anchor or parachute. The car wants to go in a straight line.
I'm unclear where you are confused on where the drag comes from.
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@MattSpeller said:
Traction is control, traction is how you maintain control.
This whole conversation is about how that is a myth.
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@MattSpeller said:
When your drive wheels have the majority of the weight of your car sitting on them it's much easier to maintain traction and thus control.
Completely untrue, as we've said and demonstrated above. What part of "spinning bad" do you think I'm wrong about?
How do you explain the e-brake problem if traction is always control?
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@scottalanmiller said:
@MattSpeller said:
Traction is control, traction is how you maintain control.
This whole conversation is about how that is a myth.
Whoooooaaaaaaa ok.... I'm going to leave it right there. Sure.
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@MattSpeller said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@MattSpeller said:
Traction is control, traction is how you maintain control.
This whole conversation is about how that is a myth.
Whoooooaaaaaaa ok.... I'm going to leave it right there. Sure.
But I demonstrated why it was true. You just keep acting like I didn't explain it.
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Have you even had enough traction to have your transmission pull out of the car? Trust me, traction and control are extremely different things.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Have you even had enough traction to have your transmission pull out of the car? Trust me, traction and control are extremely different things.
Offroad = All you care about is traction
Onroad = Control is more important, but traction creates the opportunity for control.
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So if you ignore the commonly known snow and e-brake traction examples, which are the ones we normally use to show traction problems in other contexts, then try this mental experiment....
Get in a sled and get pulled behind a car by a rope. Not fast, just 20mph or so. As long as the car goes forward, so you do, in a straight line. Control. The traction between the sled and the road pulls and keeps the sled behind the car.
Now put that same sled out in front of the car on a long pole. Now drive the same. The same traction that made you go in a straight line before is going to make you want to veer to the sides and possibly break the pole. The traction that made one things safe while pulling made the other dangerous from pushing.
Or, more common, why is it easy to pull a tractor trailer but dangerous to push it? Imagine how unstable an 18 wheeler would be at 60mph if the trailer was out in front! Yet there is just as much traction. it is how the traction is applies that makes it safe or dangerous.
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@IRJ said:
Onroad = Control is more important, but traction creates the opportunity for control.
And the opportunity for a loss of it. Unless you have traction to break your control, you have no need of it because you would just keep going in a straight line. It is traction without control that causes spins.
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Or just a tractor with a wagon. Driving forward it is easy, the wagon stays behind you. Go backwards and if you twist the wheel at all the wagon goes around the side and tries to flip you.
Traction isn't magic. It doesn't make up for other forms of losing control.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@IRJ said:
Onroad = Control is more important, but traction creates the opportunity for control.
And the opportunity for a loss of it. Unless you have traction to break your control, you have no need of it because you would just keep going in a straight line. It is traction without control that causes spins.
No traction = stuck
which has it's own challenges
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@IRJ said:
No traction = stuck
which has it's own challenges
Little ones, like making you walk.
As I like to tell new drivers in NY.... if your RWD gets stuck, it is the car protecting you from yourself because any condition where you were unable to keep your RWD moving is a condition where another kind of car would have kept you moving beyond your ability to control it.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@IRJ said:
No traction = stuck
which has it's own challenges
Little ones, like making you walk.
As I like to tell new drivers in NY.... if your RWD gets stuck, it is the car protecting you from yourself because any condition where you were unable to keep your RWD moving is a condition where another kind of car would have kept you moving beyond your ability to control it.
It can be fatal, depending on when and where you get stuck.
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@IRJ said:
It can be fatal, depending on when and where you get stuck.
Then the fatal portion was driving in conditions too dangerous. It's pretty hard for a snowy condition where you get stuck being more dangerous stuck than in an accident. Accidents make you stuck too.
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I had a buddy gain too much traction on a dry road in an AWD Subara, the traction shot him over the road and into an end over end flip three times. He walked away, but he has more control and safety sliding that he did with all that traction.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@IRJ said:
It can be fatal, depending on when and where you get stuck.
Then the fatal portion was driving in conditions too dangerous. It's pretty hard for a snowy condition where you get stuck being more dangerous stuck than in an accident. Accidents make you stuck too.
Upstate NY was -28 the other night I believe. Maybe that was with windchill or whatever, but you wouldn't want to spend the night in your car during that.
