Web Application VS Windows Application
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
@scottalanmiller said:
You can make a web app look, feel and behave just like a desktop app.
Maybe so, but for the two main applications that I use most of the time - Microsoft Office and Microsoft Dynamics - the desktop app is superior to the web app, to the extent that I rarely use the web app at all.
Maybe it is possible to create web apps that are the equal of their desktop equivalents, but I've yet to see it.
@scottalanmiller said:
There is a reason why desktop apps of this nature have been considered a legacy design (for business applications) since the early 2000s.
What nature? Desktop apps still rule as far as I can tell. I rarely use web apps apart from for very simple applications.
And this is where the confusion comes in.
According to Scott - Office 2013 installed locally on the desktop (on Windows) is a web app. So is the web app version of Word that you can get with Office 365.
So my question is... why aren't they the same? What prevents MS from having them be identical, or at least nearly so?
They have been rapidly merging. The one on the desktop is definitely hooking into more stuff and much heavier. But the online came about when they did the big desktop migration to web tech.
My guess is that mostly they keep them separate because they want to keep selling local installs for a little longer.
Hmm.. I wonder why - Unless there costs come over the top of what they get out of licensing O365, they would seem to be giving up money, not making more.
It's not exactly the same, but Gnome 3 on Linux is stylized with CSS. Apps built with things like electron are fast and quick to build. Plus it's closer to a unified code base.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@IT-ADMIN said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@IT-ADMIN said:
if i work with web application, i will use preexisting template , i will just customize the php code to meet the business need, i cannot crack my head with the design, it is another world (CSS, javascript, jquery and some other scary stuff) the template make our life easier
None of that book is design.
you mean it is a programming language, right?
but wait, why should i learn new language while i already knew one ???Do you know a good application framework? What language do you know?
sorry guys for the late, i just login into ML from yesterday
well, i do not know any framework language (you mean by framework like tools for designing a website, right) the last web application i did was very bad in term of design because i do not like playing with CSS and javascript, what i do all the time is : pick up a free template and inject my code in it, sometimes i find it difficult to adapt the logic of my application into the template, in that time i content my self with only HTML code (bad looking design lol) for this reason i move to windows application because i'm not into design -
@scottalanmiller said:
@IT-ADMIN said:
but i think JEE is not outdated,
What is JEE?
sorry, J2EE
we used to call it like this back in university -
@IT-ADMIN said:
well, i do not know any framework language (you mean by framework like tools for designing a website, right)
Not for designing, a framework for the development side. I'll give a few popular examples, not trying to sell any of them, these are just well known ones...
- Rails Framework for the Ruby language (aka Ruby on Rails.)
- Django for Python
- CakePHP for PHP
- MVC for ASP.NET / C#
- Grails for Java
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@IT-ADMIN said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@IT-ADMIN said:
but i think JEE is not outdated,
What is JEE?
sorry, J2EE
we used to call it like this back in universityI didn't know many people doing Java before 1998. We knew about it, but it hadn't really caught on yet. Actually I think that I did a little Java before 1998, but very little.
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@IT-ADMIN said:
what i do all the time is : pick up a free template and inject my code in it, sometimes i find it difficult to adapt the logic of my application into the template, in that time i content my self with only HTML code (bad looking design lol) for this reason i move to windows application because i'm not into design
I think you are getting a skewed view of programming web applications because of that. You are starting with a content management system, I think, or a web site design and trying to add code behind it. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but you would never do that with a desktop app right? You would never start with a form full of buttons and try to write an application to use that interface? You don't with web design either.
Web design is just like desktop design in that regards. You write a strong application, design is not even the programmer's job. That's a designer's job. The application and the design should not be connected.
You can add a template for good design on top, that's what Twitter's Bootstrap option is. It is relatively plain but looks modern, works well and is free. But it is just a template that modifies what you have done. It's not a website on its own that you modify. It's nothing like a template for Wordpress or something like that.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@IT-ADMIN said:
if i work with web application, i will work with JEE, otherwise if i work a desktop application i will use vb.net, because java in windows application is a headach but in web it is OK
Oh, do you mean J2EE? I've never heard anyone call it JEE.
JEE is fine for web applications, what framework(s) do you use with it?
JEE is definitely not an efficient langauge for web development, though. Can you do it? Sure, but would you? Just because you know that language does not mean that it will make things easier. I know Java too, but I'd much rather learn Ruby to leverage Rails, for example, when actually making a web app. People use the "right" language for the "right" task for a reason.
VB.NET I would never use for anything
why you would never use VB.NET ??
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@IT-ADMIN said:
why you would never use VB.NET ??
It's not exactly that VB is terrible, but basically. It is a legacy language that is only kept for supporting old code. It's poor to write and no serious developers work with it. It has no advantages on its own and has long ago been abandoned for good reason. The .NET framework that it runs on is excellent but C# and F# are the serious languages there.
Using VB not only means that you yourself have to deal with the unnecessary pain of a poor language but it also means that you have long term business problems. It is harder to hire someone to maintain your code - have you ever met a serious VB programmer? Not since the 1990s and even then almost no good developers would touch it. VB is a level of "tied to Windows" beyond .NET. Everything about the language is a negative. On the technical side the downsides are small, but there. On the cultural and business sides, they are rather large.
Pretty much working with VB relegates you to people who have worked in code a little starting long ago and failed to move on to better things, those that can't be hired anywhere else or those that really don't code at all and were incorrectly led astray by someone else that doesn't know how to program that "VB is easier", which it never was, leading to a history of misinformation around the language.
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i totally agree with you, but what force me to work with vb.net the fact that the management application we have now in the company was programmed with vb.net so i have to work with this language, otherwise i have to repeat everything from scratch which is not possible at all,
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if i want to develop and add new feature into the application i have to use vb.net
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@IT-ADMIN said:
i totally agree with you, but what force me to work with vb.net the fact that the management application we have now in the company was programmed with vb.net so i have to work with this language, otherwise i have to repeat everything from scratch which is not possible at all,
See, that is what makes it bad - it's all about supporting legacy apps that were made poorly by people who long ago didn't know how to choose good products. So it is one bad decision followed by another or at least by an inability to update and replace.
VB.NET is very limiting, locking you to Windows, tying you to legacy thought processes. You "can" use VB.NET to make modern, good MVC based ASP.NET enterprise applications, for example, but realistically no one does this and it would make no sense.
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for example if i want to change an action of a specific button, i have to edit vb.net code, this is what i mean
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i swear i never use vb.net before, all the time i have that idea that vb is used by beginners and those who are not familiar with programming because it is more close to human language, i had previous experience with c++ and java but only small project but c# was my favorite,
now the company i work in, we have a programmer who is with me, and he is the one who is in charge of development, i'm in charge of everything IT except programming, now the management decided that i have to handle them both, in addition to my job i have to help the programmer because he was overwhelmed and there are too much work pending so i have to integrate with him to finish the work as soon as possible, i liked the idea and consider it a good opportunity to improve myself especially i have a background in programming
the problem now is that programmer is using vb.net all the time, every program in our company is vb.net, and i'm not familiar with vb.net not wanting to learn it lol
i do not have a choice i have to learn it in order to help developing the 3 year legacy programs we have already, in the same time i cannot change the programmer's mind -
@IT-ADMIN said:
i do not have a choice i have to learn it in order to help developing the 3 year legacy programs we have already, in the same time i cannot change the programmer's mind
"Programmer" might be a generous term
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If you are going to make your own code, make it in something practical. If the "developer" can't program at the level of the "non-developer" maybe that should be exposed rather than everyone catering to the "developer" that can't learn a modern language to show that he's the least capable person to be doing the work.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@IT-ADMIN said:
i do not have a choice i have to learn it in order to help developing the 3 year legacy programs we have already, in the same time i cannot change the programmer's mind
"Programmer" might be a generous term
sorry, i didn't understand ??
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ah i see, programmer is not correct, i have to use the developer
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@IT-ADMIN said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@IT-ADMIN said:
i do not have a choice i have to learn it in order to help developing the 3 year legacy programs we have already, in the same time i cannot change the programmer's mind
"Programmer" might be a generous term
sorry, i didn't understand ??
If he can only work in VB, I think calling him a programmer is likely too kind. Not that working in VB is that bad, it's just not a good choice for intentional development. But the reason that he is working in VB, because he is likely confused and unable to do development at even the level of a decent high school student (my fifteen year old niece who hates computers even knowns C#), makes it seem excessive to refer to him as a programmer. If he is below the competence of an intern in programming (we'd never consider keeping an intern that couldn't get beyond VB, right?!!?) then giving him a title like programmer is misleading.
