Should We Remove Bloatware on Office PCs
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@scottalanmiller said:
On the ones that I have seen, it literally won't let you remove without rebooting. It's not an opinion, the OS does not allow it.
What can I say? I assure you it takes me 10 minutes. Maybe European HPs are set up differently to US ones?
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@scottalanmiller said:
On the ones that I have seen, it literally won't let you remove without rebooting. It's not an opinion, the OS does not allow it.
What can I say? I assure you it takes me 10 minutes. Maybe European HPs are set up differently to US ones?
That is VERY possible, in fact. Almost certain.
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Do European ones not get that "HP Smartsecure" suite or whatever that is called?
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Oh yes, managing OEM keys, we forget that in the calculation of time and effort. With modern machines making keys so hard to get, how do you handle being able to do OEM installs? It has been a decade since I needed to track OEM keys and match them to machines, but doesn't that alone cause even bigger headaches today than it did in the early 2000s?
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There is quite a bit of security stuff, yeah. Can't remember what it is called. And you have to uninstall it in a particular order.
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We used to have OEM Keys with all of the necessary info about what could be installed on each machine. Now, it seems, that is far harder.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
There is quite a bit of security stuff, yeah. Can't remember what it is called. And you have to uninstall it in a particular order.
Yeah, I knew that it was order specific. But it always makes me reboot. The "Programs" dialogue will refuse to work and force a reboot to continue.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Oh yes, managing OEM keys, we forget that in the calculation of time and effort. With modern machines making keys so hard to get, how do you handle being able to do OEM installs? It has been a decade since I needed to track OEM keys and match them to machines, but doesn't that alone cause even bigger headaches today than it did in the early 2000s?
It's annoying. Since Windows 8, you don't have a printed key anymore. So you are restricted to using brand-specific discs that activate based on the BIOS. It's a huge pain in retail.
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@thanksajdotcom said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Oh yes, managing OEM keys, we forget that in the calculation of time and effort. With modern machines making keys so hard to get, how do you handle being able to do OEM installs? It has been a decade since I needed to track OEM keys and match them to machines, but doesn't that alone cause even bigger headaches today than it did in the early 2000s?
It's annoying. Since Windows 8, you don't have a printed key anymore. So you are restricted to using brand-specific discs that activate based on the BIOS. It's a huge pain in retail.
Ah, so that would actually make it easier in some cases, like @Carnival-Boy's, I assume, rather than worse.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@thanksajdotcom said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Oh yes, managing OEM keys, we forget that in the calculation of time and effort. With modern machines making keys so hard to get, how do you handle being able to do OEM installs? It has been a decade since I needed to track OEM keys and match them to machines, but doesn't that alone cause even bigger headaches today than it did in the early 2000s?
It's annoying. Since Windows 8, you don't have a printed key anymore. So you are restricted to using brand-specific discs that activate based on the BIOS. It's a huge pain in retail.
Ah, so that would actually make it easier in some cases, like @Carnival-Boy's, I assume, rather than worse.
The problem becomes that you can't use a generic ISO without purchasing a new key. I've tried a few utilities that can "extract" the key from the BIOS but I've yet to find a disc/key combo that works that way. I've always had to fall back to ordering discs from the manufacturer.
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@thanksajdotcom I don't believe that he is using a generic one.
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Since the whole thing with the key being embedded in the BIOS starting with Windows 8, especially in businesses, VL makes SO MUCH MORE SENSE! You can use your own image, a vanilla copy of Windows, and it's just easier to manage!
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@scottalanmiller said:
@thanksajdotcom I don't believe that he is using a generic one.
I didn't see the post that triggered this thread.
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It's part of the discussion in this one:
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@scottalanmiller said:
It's part of the discussion in this one:
Ok, I'll have to check it out at some point.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Only because you are willing to give your users something we would classify as "not ready for use." I'd call it "not prepped yet." You have to have a different standard for what you hand to them than we would accept. Mostly in terms of unknowns (you haven't had time to investigate what that machine is like) and inconsistencies (can you make sure everyone is getting the same thing.)
I'm not following you. What do you mean "what the machine is like"? Why can't I be sure everyone is getting the same thing? What is unacceptable to you?
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Only because you are willing to give your users something we would classify as "not ready for use." I'd call it "not prepped yet." You have to have a different standard for what you hand to them than we would accept. Mostly in terms of unknowns (you haven't had time to investigate what that machine is like) and inconsistencies (can you make sure everyone is getting the same thing.)
I'm not following you. What do you mean "what the machine is like"? Why can't I be sure everyone is getting the same thing? What is unacceptable to you?
Things that I would not find acceptable (I'm not saying it is dramatic, only given the cost trade offs I'd not accept it):
- The machine is in an unknown state, the OEM can vary what is being delivered at any time and does. Different users get different things as delivered and you may not know what they are.
- Consistency of image between models or versions cannot be maintained. Users get different experiences, even if only slightly.
- Cost of delivering future rebuilds is higher.
- The machine is not validated as it is an "unknown state" prior to delivery.
Basically you can't be sure that the machine is the same (or similar) because you had someone else put something unknown onto it. You can guess or assume that it will be like others you have received recently but there is no guarantee. It might have a new version of the software, it might have gotten installed differently (it happens), it might have a problem. It's not a consistent image being applies it's just "whatever arrived."
The effort to be consistent is so trivial up front (so trivial I do it for home) and pays off in the long term on the IT side alone (less to support) that it just makes it worth it, IMHO, in every situation.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Only because you are willing to give your users something we would classify as "not ready for use." I'd call it "not prepped yet." You have to have a different standard for what you hand to them than we would accept. Mostly in terms of unknowns (you haven't had time to investigate what that machine is like) and inconsistencies (can you make sure everyone is getting the same thing.)
I'm not following you. What do you mean "what the machine is like"? Why can't I be sure everyone is getting the same thing? What is unacceptable to you?
Things that I would not find acceptable (I'm not saying it is dramatic, only given the cost trade offs I'd not accept it):
- The machine is in an unknown state, the OEM can vary what is being delivered at any time and does. Different users get different things as delivered and you may not know what they are.
- Consistency of image between models or versions cannot be maintained. Users get different experiences, even if only slightly.
- Cost of delivering future rebuilds is higher.
- The machine is not validated as it is an "unknown state" prior to delivery.
Basically you can't be sure that the machine is the same (or similar) because you had someone else put something unknown onto it. You can guess or assume that it will be like others you have received recently but there is no guarantee. It might have a new version of the software, it might have gotten installed differently (it happens), it might have a problem. It's not a consistent image being applies it's just "whatever arrived."
The effort to be consistent is so trivial up front (so trivial I do it for home) and pays off in the long term on the IT side alone (less to support) that it just makes it worth it, IMHO, in every situation.
I agree. Consistency is key. And I know exactly what Scott is talking about. I've ordered the same computer that we ordered a month before, and it's come with some software that was installed not installed, new software not there before, different versions of the same software, different trials of AVs, Office, etc, and much more.
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Yes, but you can uninstall all of that. So where is the inconsistency?
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@Carnival-Boy said:
Yes, but you can uninstall all of that. So where is the inconsistency?
You can. But one of the original questions that led us to this thread and the topic of this thread was should it be removed at all.
But even if you are removing it, you don't have a consistent process for getting things in place. Is it consistent? Maybe. Bottom line is, you don't know. On servers, we know it is consistently variable.
